Malakim and Balance

Ok played with Malakim few and i like very much it played with Empy. I played SP and MP games, but found few malakim weaknesses that will prevent being chosen in MP by player.
OCC > they are terribly weak with occ. No strong special units, except sand lion and sun palace mana for Chalid + Overcouncil diplo strenght (which is rarely/never used in MPs). Their best religion is unable to sustain unlimited or hight enough mood for potent capital. They can go Order or FoL but they lose strenght of their sun related stuff.
Their World Spell is terribly weak with OCC as well.
Solution: MAke World Spell mechanics different. they should get 1 Priest UU (that will be aditional hight priest unit in game, same promos as State religion hightpriests , 5th one, national , limit = 1, unbuildable ) and get XP of CapitalPopulation + NumberOfCities . Thats enough balanced and allow them some additional power in Disciple path, as they were designed. Tham make them also challanegers in OCC.
For Normal games its also give em some power , and at big maps with alot of cities is weaker than old worldspell, which is by then enormously strong.
Malakim are tooo late civ, very late thats its harder to play it than other races.

OCC = One city challenge yes?

So, I don't mean to be harsh, but One City Challenge is a pretty major change to playing any game/mod. There are a lot of different crazy options you can play with and/or choose, and I don't think attempting to balance things for each of them is reasonable. Could you balance the Lanun for a Great Plains map? The Sheiam for one without an Armageddon counter?

Not only for OCC... OCC is MP option that being played alot

Also for Normal games - malakim is very late civ....... very late

and its weak at start and middle of game, most mp games are not long, as you know, esp for PVP

obviously some civs will do better than others in OCC, simply because of their mechanics. A khazad, kurio, sidar or elven civ will beat a bannor, sheiam or malakim in OCC 90% of the times. Some civs get their strenght from improved cities, some from other mechanics (upkeep/numer of cities mechanics etc.). Balancing them at individual city level would be undoable without seriously compromising individual flavour.

We don't have to consider changes purely from an OCC standpoint. Malakim in general could use a looking at.

So, what about the suggestions to you think are bad/good/other?

I am about to try Malakim myself, and could use some discussion by people who know them.

Are they lacking in national/hero units? They seem to have a top tier hero to me, but I am unaware of their national unit situation or how it is different from other civs. Is this a result from their tech path or the civ itself?

I'm heading into the desert now. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

I was playing with them and I really like them - together with Empyrian they can get really strong, and when you have built some cities, a priest in every city comes quite nicely. Furthermore they produce much culture and have the adaptive trait, which gives them a massive bonus, if used. (you can switch to charming and go for some adepts, then they will be very fast leveled up and higher than 100xp normally goes).

Malakim are a bit under powered, I guess. I'd really like to see LightBringers cost less, and still be strength 3. It'd be interesting to have a civ that *starts* with valid disciple units.

That said, They don't really have any cool late game toys to play with.

I think they're OK. (ow: khazad.....)

But i also would like to see their world spell changed.

Why not make a world spell which grants more xp for priests than it currently does, something comparable to the Amurite world spell for arcane units? This one could also depend on the number of improved mana nodes ... why not?

And an UB that boosts xp for priests, like the UB for Amurites.

I only play single player. My main gripe with Malakim is that there's no early hero. I generally try to avoid hostilities until religious law and Chalid, and then I go from weakling straight to... not a weakling. The only things I'd really like would be an early hero. Oh, and to upgrade rathas to knights.

Malakim are a bland civ.

They have a few advantages:
1. Good leader traits. Cre/Fin is good early and Adaptive allows for some flexibility. (It would be better if the adaptive trait replaced Cre rather than Fin though)
2. Sand lions. All of their mages get Summon Sand Lion free, no promotions necessary.
3. Sun mana from Palace. They're the only civ that gets a free sun mana this way, so it makes Chalid and Aurealis summoning stronger than usual.
4. The Overcouncil. Their national hero, Teutorix, gives +1 vote in the overcouncil, giving Malakim the ability to dominate the overcouncil. However, Teutorix is at a very strange place on the tech tree for a religion-centered civilization...

Malakim can focus on the arcane line. Take Arcane or Charismatic with your adaptive trait. Use Sand Lions (the only other tier2 summon aside of spectres) and later Aurealis as your main offensive units. With an extra sun mana you can get also get Sun spells like blinding light for free easier than another civ could.

Or, go down the religious line, use Chalid + Empyrean priests and try to use overcouncil to pull other civs into your wars. This isn't really a uniquely Malakim except for the additional sun mana, though it's easier to get experienced priests with their world spell. Of course it's easier to control the overcouncil with Teutorix, but he's on a completely different tech line.

So, how balanced are they? I don't know >_> They're a fairly vanilla civ and lack the interesting mechanics of other civs. They're not the worst civ *cough* Kuriotate *cough*, but they could maybe do with something extra.

moving teutonix to a different tech would be a start, he's 100-200 turns away from your normal tech path (as you've said ). The desert advantage can be quite big aswell, depending on the map. Bring a few adepts with scorch along to boost this advantage! Use fruitful tiles for your central cities, and deserts at your borders. Other civs take twice as long to pass through them, and you get a whopping +50% combat compared to fighting on plains.

thats what i told, they are VERY late civ....
+ mind that blasting power NOT in Disciple path favoured by combo of Malakim/Empy, but need engeneering to tech.

The Kuriotates also start with Sun mana from their palace.

The Malakim are one of my favorite civilizations, mostly due to the Adaptive trait. The other civs with adaptive have some pretty hefty counter-balances: Kuriotates are limited in their number of cities, and the Grigori cannot choose religion.

Being adaptive lets the Malakim be financial in the early game when money and research are extremely important. Then switch to organized for one rotation and build a Command Post in every city - that's a pretty huge advantage! They're also ideally suited for the Empyrean religion (By the way Deus Dei gives +2 experience to disciple units). After organized go Charismatic, switch to Theocracy, Apprenticeship, and Conquest for a bit. Assuming you did not get very many great prophets (let's assume three, one for Deus Dei and two for Altar of Luonnotar which you build in the Empyrean Holy City to stack benefits). Hey, that's 14 experience per disciple unit - not too shabby for this point in the game. Stick a National Epic in the city and you can crank out a massive army of Crusaders/Priests all level 5 in a very short order.

Flexibility is king, and the Malakim are the most flexible civilization. Note the above strategy requires zero, that's right, zero resources. No Iron? No Copper? No Incense or Reagants? No problem, your level 5 Crusaders can go get you some. (Note: To use crusaders, you'll need to go Order. I will go Order instead of Empyrean if I don't have any Copper or Incense for Vicars/Stronger Radiant Guard).

Addendum: If I feel like being more peaceful with the Malakim i'll go Philosophical after Organized much of the time. Rushing all those Great Prophets to churn out a huge Altar of the Luonnotar is all the more devastating when you switch to Charismatic later for your war.

Malakim are my favourite civ as well. Cre/Fin rocks, with the adaptive trait to be more versatile. As for their world spell, its not weak (its okays), as when you are churning out a domination victory, you can pop out alot of your experienced priests.

As for their hero, i agree that it is waaaay in the wrong area (and late too) for a religious orientated civ. I also agree that lightbringers should be cheaper. Its very cool that you can build them and instantly upgrade them into disciples, which then for the big price of 5gp, they have sentry (woohoo!).

Crusaders require a metal resource. Either copper or iron or mithril works, but they can't be built in the complete absence of metal. Also, I'm not really sure how crusaders factor into the Malakim civilzation. Anybody except Infernals can build those.

If you make Lightbringers cheaper, then the cost of upgrading them will rise. The reason it costs so little is that the hammer costs of the two units are the same.

Frankly I don't see a point in having keeping lightbringers at all. I'm leaning towards removing them, and either making the Citadel of Light grant Sentry (II, as not to make the Tower of Eyes worthless?) or to simply make the Nomad promotion boost line of sight by 1. Or, I might make them an Ecclesiastic UU with extra promotions, to increase the synergy between the religions. Would it be too much for them to have sentry1, channeling1, and sun1, which would mean that Malakim Empyrean priests would also have all the sun sorcery spells (Scorch, Blinding Light, and Summon Aurealis in addition to the normal Revelation, Crown of Brilliance, Cure Disease, and Heal)?

I was thinking about this after playing them on a Creation map. I think the key is, how to make the Malakim thrive in desert, and not just have it on their borders? I was thinking having a unique training yard that would give a free "desert hardened" promotion based on # of unimproved desert tiles in the fat cross.

1-4 desert: Hardened I (+10% )
5-8 desert: Hardened II (+20% , +10% desert defence)
9-12 desert: Hardened III (+30% , +20% desert def)
13-16 desert: Hardened IV (+40% , +20% desert atk/def, +10% heal in desert)
17-20 desert: Hardened V (+50% , +30% desert atk/def, +20% heal in desert, +1 in desert)

Kind of Dune-esque, but it would encourage players to keep unimproved desert around at least some of their cities. Also, maybe give it only to melee units for balance.

I'd like to see Malakim workers be able to utilize desert tiles in some fashion. As it is I still don't want to plant cities in desert, and if I have a desert start I want to remove it as quickly as possible. Seems kinda opposite of what a desert-dwelling race should be.

If these poeple grew up in the desert and worship a sun god maybe they get +1 food and hammer for desert tiles that can be raised to say +2 food and +1 hammer if you reserch a certain tech like the lunan's seafaring and maybe they can farm it? (possible if they get construction?)