SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters

I think I know what you're driving at. The question is: Can the Pyramids significantly speed up our PA? We haven't really done enough testing to be able to rule that possibility out. Let's loook at it this way. klarius got a PA on T133. You're getting ALphabet on ~T60, but not able to DoW until Literature at the earliest around T70, but better with Drama at T80. That gives you 53 turns to improve upon klarius' Alpha bee-line. Getting the 40 turns of common war in 53 turns is iffy, let alone doing it faster.

In addition to that we have the Risk factor:

1. We have one case in which the AI finished the Pyramids before we can hope to do it.
2. We know that we don't get ALpha till ~T60, at which time it's very difficult to cause a DoW, so we're delaying our ability to control our destiny until we reearch Drama (we don't want to trade Literature too soon). Suppose our danger zone for getting terminally DoWed starts on T20. We then change that 'window of opportunity' from 25 turns to 40-50 turns at least. Hmm...
3. Not getting Alpha till T60, we also dont' have BW till then, so we have no defenses.
4. As soon as we get BW we're more or less forced to divert our production into building a couple of axes, just in case.
5. The Pyramids Gambit depends on Deer, which we have no certainty we'll hold onto till we get Fishing from Alpha.

EDIT: CRC is NOT on our exact path. They are at Power 7 on T22. We'll be at Power 9 on T20. Either they researched some combination of hunting and masonry and built a warrior while growing to pop 2 (my guess) or they followed our research path but built a worker from the start or something else. In any case, I say, let's do it our way! Game on!!!

Erkon said:

Yep, so we all share a -1 with Gnejs unless one of us give in to his demands (then he will get a +1 )

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Gnejs is one of those Cathy types, I think. It's at least -2 if not -3. Am I bad?

I managed to die on my own map. Cathy stole my Capital 1200 BC.

Ok. I cave to the extortion.
Erkon map. Pyramids T47 (warrior-wb-worker-worker-pyramids), (fishing-wheel-masonry-hunting-...alphabet T60).
Communism 640AD and you can have Isa or Vicky. Mansa or Hatty would also be only of few turns more, but are anyway not that good.

Good thing: initial alphabet trading went well, with math,BW right away and poly, IW next turn.
Could trade for philosophy.

One engineer settled, then 3 GS (at less than 100% odds obviously).

Bad: no religion until astronomy and had to go out of free religion to organized to convert Isa to the religion that spread from the other continent.

klarius said:

Ok. I cave to the extortion.
Erkon map. Pyramids T47 (warrior-wb-worker-worker-pyramids), (fishing-wheel-masonry-hunting-...alphabet T60).
Communism 640AD and you can have Isa or Vicky. Mansa or Hatty would also be only of few turns more, but are anyway not that good.

Good thing: initial alphabet trading went well, with math,BW right away and poly, IW next turn.
Could trade for philosophy.

One engineer settled, then 3 GS (at less than 100% odds obviously).

Bad: no religion until astronomy and had to go out of free religion to organized to convert Isa to the religion that spread from the other continent.

Click to expand...

+2 You gave us tribute

I figured I had to do it myself, so I also tried Erkons map:

Hunting-Masonry-Wheel-AH-Writing-Fishing (this has to be suboptimal...)-Alpha T65
Worker-Warrior-Pyramids T39-Library-WB-WB (or the other way around, can't remember)
Liberalism was possible 125 BC, but I had traded to little so I had to self-research most of Machinery and Optics first. Took Astronomy with Liberalism 50 AD. More clever trading should have avoided this delay.
Communism 620 AD, choice between Mansa and Isabella. I had been setting Isabella up since a long time. 1610 Domination. Isa was a slow researcher...


Edit: Btw, the fact that Isabella is not creative had absolutely zero impact. She was very competent at generating lots of culture in captured cities.

LowtherCastle said:

I think I know what you're driving at. The question is: Can the Pyramids significantly speed up our PA? We haven't really done enough testing to be able to rule that possibility out. Let's loook at it this way. klarius got a PA on T133. You're getting ALphabet on ~T60, but not able to DoW until Literature at the earliest around T70, but better with Drama at T80. That gives you 53 turns to improve upon klarius' Alpha bee-line. Getting the 40 turns of common war in 53 turns is iffy, let alone doing it faster.

In addition to that we have the Risk factor:

1. We have one case in which the AI finished the Pyramids before we can hope to do it.
2. We know that we don't get ALpha till ~T60, at which time it's very difficult to cause a DoW, so we're delaying our ability to control our destiny until we reearch Drama (we don't want to trade Literature too soon). Suppose our danger zone for getting terminally DoWed starts on T20. We then change that 'window of opportunity' from 25 turns to 40-50 turns at least. Hmm...
3. Not getting Alpha till T60, we also dont' have BW till then, so we have no defenses.
4. As soon as we get BW we're more or less forced to divert our production into building a couple of axes, just in case.
5. The Pyramids Gambit depends on Deer, which we have no certainty we'll hold onto till we get Fishing from Alpha.

EDIT: CRC is NOT on our exact path. They are at Power 7 on T22. We'll be at Power 9 on T20. Either they researched some combination of hunting and masonry and built a warrior while growing to pop 2 (my guess) or they followed our research path but built a worker from the start or something else. In any case, I say, let's do it our way! Game on!!!

Click to expand...

Good analysis. Some comments:

I don't know what you mean by "iffy", but the 40 turns of shared war is absolutely no problem at all if we are looking at ~600 AD PA. We can join an existing was as soon as we have alpha, and bring in some further allies at little cost. If we wan't to start a new war it takes a little longer, true.

The Pyramids are built T39 using Deer, Stone, Marble. If Deer is not available we can use Sheep to the same effect. So, no, we are not depending on the Deer for very long. Once we have the Pyramids we are generating a high cultural pressure and will reclaim any contested tiles in our BFC.

Seems I have played Devil's advocate long enough now. If I don't hear anything more in 20 minutes I will start playing. According to the PPP, so no Pyramids for those who wonder...

Gnejs said:

Seems I have played Devil's advocate long enough now. If I don't hear anything more in 20 minutes I will start playing. According to the PPP, so no Pyramids for those who wonder...

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Well, it's about time . I finally want to know who our neighbors really are.

Turnset report:

Turn 0, 4000 BC:
Move warrior SW.
Settle in place. Start on warrior while working grass forest. Research Fishing (6t)

Turn 1, 3960 BC:
Move warrior SE. Spot blue border to the S, looks like Roosevelt or Washington.

Turn 2, 3920 BC:
Warrior SE passing mountain range. Two gold hills spotted.

Turn 3, 3880 BC:
Warrior S.
Meet Asoka, Tokugawa, Washington.

Turn 4, 3840 BC:
Warrior SE.
Asoka is going to settle next to our warrior. Looks like a great spot with floodplains and 2 gold. Asoka might become one of the top civs.

Turn 5, 3800 BC:
Damn! Washingtons border expand and Asoka settles Bombay on the flood plains. Our exploring warrior is thrown back north. He goes NE and spots coast.
Border expansion, 2nd warrior finished, switch to worker working Deer. 2nd warrior goes SW to explore as I assume warrior #1 cannot pass before open borders.
White border spotted to the west. Could be England or Germany.

Turn 6, 3760 BC:
Fishing in, switch to workboat.
Warrior 1 moving towards the coast, warrior 2 sw towards a gap between Washingtons culture and a mountain.

Turn 7, 3720 BC:
Meet Elizabeth.
Warrior 1 at a dead end, will return home for garrison duty.

Turn 8, 3680 BC:
Warrior 2 finds passage blocked by culture. We won't be meeting any other AIs until we or someone else has writing.
Buddhism FIDL.

Turn 9, 3640 BC:
Nothing special...
This is the known world:

And the relations:


Turn 10, 3600 BC:
Find York, so Lizzie has two cities. And Marble inside cultural border.


I am going to take a short break here. There shouldn't be anything that needs to be changed in our strategy, but our Captains says we should have a mid-turn break. I do as our clowncaptain tells me.

lol. Not exactly what he meant, I don't think. But I guess there's nothing to discuss. Pyramid route is looking strong, with all those happies around, especially with the culture from the mids getting the silver. Oh well. The wheel would connect us qickly to Wasdington for one of his golds too. Is it too late to consider switching?

Doesn't look like we will be fighting any culture battles, except over the sheep once an AI settles on the ice peninsula. Cleverly placed mountains by Gyathaar.

Glad it's Washington rather then Roosevelt. Don't need him building wonders in our face.

There is still a chance to meet somebody else.
The gold hill n of Bombay allows eye contact to the hill 2 SE. Not that it helps much .

LowtherCastle said:

lol. Not exactly what he meant, I don't think. But I guess there's nothing to discuss. Pyramid route is looking strong, with all those happies around, especially with the culture from the mids getting the silver. Oh well. The wheel would connect us qickly to Wasdington for one of his golds too. Is it too late to consider switching?

Click to expand...

It is still possible. Hunting-Masonry-Wheel-AH-Writing-Alpha. Worker starts by quarrying and connecting stone while we build a second WB. Then the Mids.

Should I stop now and let us consider this option?

klarius said:

There is still a chance to meet somebody else.
The gold hill n of Bombay allows eye contact to the hill 2 SE. Not that it helps much .

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Definitely station a look-out there, while we have that chance

Gnejs said:

It is still possible. Hunting-Masonry-Wheel-AH-Writing-Alpha. Worker starts by quarrying and connecting stone while we build a second WB. Then the Mids.

Should I stop now and let us consider this option?

Click to expand...

Maybe it wouldn't hurt. These three AIs all seem like the type klarius was warning us about. Only attack the nearby wimps, like us.

Edit: Okay, I'm signing off for today. Good luck if you decide to go on.

I think Gnejs can carry on according to the PPP. Our borders will expand on T45, and Liza wont settle before, so Sheep should not be under threat. Perhaps there will be battle of the silver, but we will win in the start and in the end.

There is no need to risk anything, so I prefer the early-alpha as we have planned.

I don't think I dare to continue when LC has voiced his concern. <Remembers LC's wrath over the Oracle in Timbuktu last game> (shudder)

LowtherCastle said:

Maybe it wouldn't hurt. These three AIs all seem like the type klarius was warning us about. Only attack the nearby wimps, like us.

Click to expand...

Which is why I didn't want the pyramids route.
Asoka and Washington don't attack at pleased (Liz does but with very low probability).
Pleased should be easy enough to achieve with alpha.

klarius said:

Which is why I didn't want the pyramids route.
Asoka and Washington don't attack at pleased (Liz does but with very low probability).
Pleased should be easy enough to achieve with alpha.

Click to expand...

Makes sense. I am going to pause here anyway as it is getting late. Expect to resume tomorrow evening. On the Alpha path, unless the general opinion swings overnight.

Let me know if you want me to upload the save. I see no reason to, it will only tell the other teams what we are up to.