SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters

LowtherCastle said:

EDIT: Okay, I see that WastinTime has 1220ad for DIplo and 1390ad for space, but that using his specialized maps. I can't open his saves but I'm assuming they're OOC but also that they're pangaea and not continents. We know that he's using just 6 AIs and that makes a huge difference for controlling the vote. I can't see how he'll get a quick vote in his favor without having pure luck that all AIs on our continent have 1 religion and Gyathaar having set up the map so that the other continent is extremely food-poor and thus low pop. Otherwise, he's in the same boat as Dominatin--having to war to achieve the DIplo vote

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Religion doesn't necessarily matter. You can use the first UN vote for Free Religion as a Global civic to remove the negative modifiers (as well as the positive ones). And don't forget is very likely most civs will be running FR anyway by the time we get MM.

Let's say there are 10 AI's on our continent (plus us):

known: Liz, Asoka, Wash, Toku
unknown: Fred, Mansa, Izzy, Saladin, Monty, Alex

Now say the following situation exists:
1) Toku, Monty, and Alex are eliminated by Liz, our PA partner - she has the greatest pop
2) The UN rival is on the other continent
3) Saladin, Izzy, and us share a religion
4) The others either share that religion or are in FR (very likely, unless Asoka founds hindu)
5) We run US, FM, and Theo

That's not an unrealistic scenario, esp if Liz is our PA partner. Our team is now on average +8 or better with everybody, and unless there's a ton of food on the other continent, we win. In fact we could probably get by without running Theo (e.g. partner with Izzy (#1 pop instead of Liz) and get Saladin's votes by +1 peace +2 OB (or the reverse, I forget) +4 tech trade +2 resources.

I think it's also possible to achieve +8 without the PA, but that's a lot trickier since you have to carefully manage who becomes the UN rival.

FiveAces said:

That's not an unrealistic scenario, esp if Liz is our PA partner. Our team is now on average +8 or better with everybody, and unless there's a ton of food on the other continent, we win.

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Interesting! Just a quick comment: We can make gift Biology to all civs likely to vote for us. As the other continent is always terribly backwards compared to ours this should be helpful.

Gnejs said:

To spite you, let me suggest at least one alternative way:

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I'm talking about our future partner's expansion, in other words, before we get to Communism.

Here's a summary of my above idea:

We bee-line CS and team up with the AI that bee-lines Machinery. Bingo!​

Gnejs said:

Interesting! Just a quick comment: We can make gift Biology to all civs likely to vote for us. As the other continent is always terribly backwards compared to ours this should be helpful.

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We have to research bio after MM then. The other prob AI won't have it otherwise, though we could help by freely gifting pre-reqs.

EDIT: and of course it could all go to a fiery hot place before CS if there's inter-AI wars and they don't like each other.

LowtherCastle said:

I'm talking about our future partner's expansion, in other words, before we get to Communism.

Here's a summary of my above idea:

We bee-line CS and team up with the AI that bee-lines Machinery. Bingo!​

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I like that. I'll add that at least one of us needs iron.

EDIT: Gnejs what is your plan for finishing your turnset? Should I hang out at the office a bit longer?

FiveAces said:

That's not an unrealistic scenario, esp if Liz is our PA partner. Our team is now on average +8 or better with everybody, and unless there's a ton of food on the other continent, we win. In fact we could probably get by without running Theo (e.g. partner with Izzy (#1 pop instead of Liz) and get Saladin's votes by +1 peace +2 OB (or the reverse, I forget) +4 tech trade +2 resources.

I think it's also possible to achieve +8 without the PA, but that's a lot trickier since you have to carefully manage who becomes the UN rival.

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Deity has iAttitudeChange = -1 and Washington, for example, has iBaseAttitude = 0, so we'd need a common war or something to make that up. But that shouldn't be a problem as long as there's someone really weak on the other continent.

FiveAces said:

I like that. I'll add that at least one of us needs iron.

EDIT: Gnejs what is your plan for finishing your turnset? Should I hang out at the office a bit longer?

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Good point.

I shouldn't speak for Gnejs, but it looks like he's gone already. He usually plays at 10 pm, after his kids have gone to bed.

LowtherCastle said:

Good point.

I shouldn't speak for Gnejs, but it looks like he's gone already. He usually plays at 10 pm, after his kids have gone to bed.

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Yup just noticed his green light went out. Ok I'm taking off. Will be back on tomorrow morning to see what's happened.

Diplomatic with a PA is pretty tricky.
First you have to take into acoount the hidden modifiers towards your partner.
Then you have the problem to control the actions of your partner. They might have acquired worst enemy penalties.
You can also not control their civics except by UN resolutions.
Several of the peaceful AIs need to be friendly to bribe them to war. That means in PA they have to be friendly with both.

Order, order! <knock knock knock>

I thought we've been through all this before we decided on Domination? Or perhaps I'm too thick to distinguish between these two discussions?? Or both???

Instead of elaborating on different VCs, and while we wait while Gnejs-the-Horny is banging his beautiful wife (blame the kids! tut-tut) I would like to propose a challenge:

Present with words (not only numbers) the characteristics of Tokugawa, Elizabeth, Asoka and Washington.

I'll give it a try: Tokugawa does normally not want to trade away techs that are not already known by most AI. On the other hand, once you're friendly with him, he will trade even monopoly techs. He is pretty aggressive, and disliked by most, especially ??? (dang, where's the chart when I need it!).

Erkon, I could be wrong, but I believe the discussion is for a back-up plan in case the current island is too small for dom. and will need too many cities on the other island.

BTW, there was a comment about what time zone I was in. I am in US Central. IIRC, I am GMT-6 hours.

Erkon said:

Order, order! <knock knock knock>

I thought we've been through all this before we decided on Domination? Or perhaps I'm too thick to distinguish between these two discussions?? Or both???

Instead of elaborating on different VCs, and while we wait while Gnejs-the-Horny is banging his beautiful wife (blame the kids! tut-tut) I would like to propose a challenge:

Present with words (not only numbers) the characteristics of Tokugawa, Elizabeth, Asoka and Washington.

I'll give it a try: Tokugawa does normally not want to trade away techs that are not already known by most AI. On the other hand, once you're friendly with him, he will trade even monopoly techs. He is pretty aggressive, and disliked by most, especially ??? (dang, where's the chart when I need it!).

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We were just trying to keep the thread noise at a dull roar while you and Gnejs were knocking and banging.

As far as the repeated discussion you mentioned, could you please just link me to the post where someone reported their results from trying out the idea of teaming up with the AI that bee-lined Machinery. Thanks. Chump

LowtherCastle said:

As far as the repeated discussion you mentioned, could you please just link me to the post where someone reported their results from trying out the idea of teaming up with the AI that bee-lined Machinery. Thanks. Chump

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Well, I never seen an AI beeline machinery with any decent speed. I'm halfway through paper when machinery comes up, sometimes even at education. That's much to late.

klarius said:

Well, I never seen an AI beeline machinery with any decent speed. I'm halfway through paper when machinery comes up, sometimes even at education. That's much to late.

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Much too late for what, to take down longbows?

LowtherCastle said:

...As far as the repeated discussion you mentioned, could you please just link me to the post where someone reported their results from trying out the idea of teaming up with the AI that bee-lined Machinery. Thanks. Chump

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Hmm, and what AI prefers Machinery? Could it be Tokugawa? Or perhaps Elizabeth? Asoka or Washington? Get my point?

It's just that I would like to shift our discussion into something that is closer at hand. Within two weeks we will know 8-10 AI's, and we'll probably spend 200+ posts discussion them. Me thinks we can start already now to characterize the four we now

Enough of the pointless babble. Yes, I am looking at you, Erkon.

Continuing my turnset now. Did we say 20 turns? Counting from now?

Turn 10, 3600 BC, continued:
Damnit! I must have been tired indeed last night to have missed it! Washington has a settler next to our Fur!



Will we lose it if he settles there? We have culture on that tile, Washington has none. Erkon says no.


Turn 11, 3560 BC:
Washington settles New York SE of our Fur. Tile is now 95% chinese. Our southeastern warrior is now blocked from going home by American culture (oh, the horror!). I am starting to bring back the southwestern warrior before he is blocked as well. Pity, since there is an unclaimed tile visible past Elizabeths culture.
Murkyopolis will grow next turn.

Turn 12, 3520 BC:
Hunting finished, start on Animal Husbandry. Murkyopolis at pop 2 working Deer+Fur. WB will be completed next turn.
SE warrior moves onto Klarius Hill and meets Huyana Capac.
Relations:


Turn 13, 3480 BC:
Work boat completed, continue on worker. Citizens on Deer and unimproved crab.

Turn 14, 3440 BC:
Crab netted. Washington has mined his gold and has gone to the top of the GNP graph. One AI city is already at size 5.

Turn 15, 3400 BC:
Oooh! Hinduism is founded in Bombay! Poor Washington may lose his gold.
SW warrior is going to have a peek on the ice peninsula before coming home.

Turn 16, 3360 BC:
Asoka and Huyana Capac adopts Hinduism. Washington adopts slavery. Ruh roh.
Ice peninsula has Fish, Crab and Clam. What a GP farm we could have had there...
A new look at the relations screen:


Turn 17, 3320 BC:
Washingtons gold mine is down to 75% culture.

Turn 18, 3280 BC:
Total computer meltdown. I get funny stripes all over the screen and have to reboot. Probably it couldn't handle my Alt-tabbing...
Going to PM an admin before continuing. And yes, I do have autosaves every turn, AND manual saves every turn.

No staff online. Per Erkons orders I am playing on from the last autosave that happens to be called AutoSave_BC-3280.Civ4SavedGame.

Turn 19, 3240 BC:
...

Turn 20, 3200 BC:
Tokugawa adopts slavery.
Washington converts to Hinduism.
Worker completed and Animal Husbandry in. No horses visible anywhere.
Save uploaded.

Turn log:

Autolog:

We will not loose it initially. Please restrict the number of report posts Sir

EDIT: What I really wanted to say was GOOD LUCK!!!

EDIT2: Southeastern warrior is enroute SW to hill, no?

EDIT3: Man, this will be interesting! Crowded map!!

EDIT4: Very interesting! I'll take a look at the save, then log off until Sunday night. Please behave. Don't do anything stupid. Please agree on a suitable turn set length for LC, and good luck if you decide to play before I'm back.

Good luck, Gnejs!

Erkon said:

Hmm, and what AI prefers Machinery? Could it be Tokugawa? Or perhaps Elizabeth? Asoka or Washington? Get my point?

It's just that I would like to shift our discussion into something that is closer at hand. Within two weeks we will know 8-10 AI's, and we'll probably spend 200+ posts discussion them. Me thinks we can start already now to characterize the four we now

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The idea is to discuss it now so we have time to test it out in advance. It doesn't matter who likes to bee-line Machinery. What matters is that klarius tells us how to increase the likelihood of that happening and we do that. NO matter what it comes down to some sort of odds, so we pick several AIs to increase the odds that one will do it. Plus, if they're so slow at it, as klarius says, then we need to try to speed them up too. Although I don't think in the middle of paper is too slow becuase we need time to build and transport our cats anyway. Plus a mace defender or something like that.

Meanwhile, you go ahead an figure out what you're going to do with Toku. (how do you spell zilcho? )

EDIT1: Let's hope Washington doesn't have any copper or Huyana or TOku are close and powerless.

Gnejs said:

Turn 18, 3280 BC:
Total computer meltdown. I get funny stripes all over the screen and have to reboot. Probably it couldn't handle my Alt-tabbing...
Going to PM an admin before continuing. And yes, I do have autosaves every turn, AND manual saves every turn.

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Just be sure to tell the truth--Washington DoWed and capture our capital with an unpromoted warrior...

EDIT: Well played Gnejs! Onward and upward.