SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters

jesusin said:

Is this an argument against rushing the GLib?
(just asking in order to take post #1000)

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No, not necessarily. Just making it clear how important it is for us to get Drama and grow asap.

Erkon is going to fine you a turnset for that...if you're lucky.

Gnejs said:

Lurking: Mitiu

It seems like a draw, and maybe we shouldn't keep this debate going forever. So how do we resolve it? jesusin decides? Captain decides? Coin toss? Screw this and dow Washington?
{...}

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Flip the coin definately - because anyway there will be somekind of randomness in AI moves ...

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Turn log

T55:
Slight change of plan already. Don't build barracks for a turn, but research. Big waste in vanilla, but the barracks hammers are also no big boon.
Scout retreats.

T56:
Change MM to no scientists lots of hammers.
WE Check:
Asoka - Alex
Kublai - George
George - Alex
JC - George
Alex - George
Liz - Alex
Isa - George

No Hands. JC isn't fearing our advancement anymore.
Worker goes to river grass.
Scout is near Berlin. There are 2 swords, 2 axes, 2 spears, 3 archers.
The culture battle for the silver tile might get a bit tougher than thought. George has temple, monastery and obelisk in Washington.

IBT:
Granary->GLib (pyramids wasn't available )
Lit->drama.

T57:
MM to full hammers.
Worker builds cottage for now, to maximize the time we can get math.
JC and KK are now maxed on different religion with George. As he was their WE enemy even before that will stay so until hell freezes over.
The other WEs will also stay the same until something drastic happens.
As expected lit isn't enough for any declaration of JC.
No hands around.
Scout near Tiwanaku, 4 archers, spear, settler.
Could please somebody tell our friends that building spears makes no sense on a continent w/o horses .

IBT:
Now it begins:
JC wants us to cancel deals with George. Reject and he is cautious .

T58:
Scout continues into Mongolia. KK also thinks swords are best used to guard resources.
No hands around.
Liz accepts now OB again. Do it.

IBT:
HC wants to grant us peace fro poly.

T59:
Izzy has a missionary headed for Tiwanaku or Sparta probably.
At her speed we might get Buddha before anything else.
No hands.

T60:
Years of peace time . Asoka @ +1 pleased as predicted.
Note that DoW to civs at cautious isn't redded out.
SDK. Yes there is a > not >= there for denial. So attitude them is much less of a problem. Still we have not enough bait to get him even on Toku.
That also means we could probably set JC to go after KK if we declared first. Probably not the brightest idea, so I leave that out.
Liz is the second to get math. Still no trade. Scout has now done the coastline. Beshbalik has only min garrison archer and spear.
No hands.

T61:
JC has now also math. Asoka would trade, but we have no bait. It's too late for math next turn, so I set 1 scientist to still get the GS at the same time.
The numberless praetorians JC is boasting are 2 in Rome.

T62:
Asoka has incense to spare. I ask him for a gift to reserve it for us as we have no resource to give him currently. So our happy cap has just increased.
Delhi is Hindu now, so Asoka built his first missionary. We should have a good chance to be the target of the second missionary as long as we have no religion.
Izzy has 1 axe, 2 spears and 5 archers to defend Madrid. She also has 2 galleys for whatever reason.
Still no trade for math possible.

T63:
GLib is in. The GPP already counted for this turn, so we get GS in 2 turns already with only 1 scientist. This allows to grow in 2 also.
I pause here so it doesn't look like I never pause.
We still cannot trade for math, so question is to trade for sailing. Drama comes in 2 turns.
What to build now (trade for sailing?) and what to do with the worker now that we have a shiny new cottage.
Christianity was founded in Bombay.

Continue:
I trade for sailing with Fred. That shouldn't reduce our chances for math a lot. JC and Isa go WFYABTA.
Switch to lighthouse.
Worker cannot move this turn, so the sequence LC proposed for sheep doesn't work out.
The second cottage is anyway not that important, IMO .

IBT:
Next problem .
Alex and Fred make peace with HC.
T64:

Math is wider spread now, so several people would trade. We just cannot afford it (Liz has alpha now).
We lost our dog pile shield with Liz as Alex is at peace with the world now. But she still has no OB with George.
No diplomatic actions possible w/o drama.
I just finish this turn then we can discuss the various options next (with drama and GS).

IBT: A lot happening and I think we really have a bit to discuss.
Drama completes.
Merit Ptah is available for academy or philo.
Hinduism spread, so we could really run pacifism.
We grow to 7.

T65:
I do no move just looking around.
Asoka gone cautious again. Looks like we are doing to good .
Asoka, Liz, Fred, KK and Alex would trade us math for Drama, but not for less.
Fred could be bribed to go for Toku, but also requires drama. Drama+lit is not enough for Toku+math.
He rejects going after Alex with "nothing to gain". That means power. He would maybe do it if we would declare first, but that's tight (power of him and us has to be 1.5*Alex'). Also expensive, though lit+drama should probably do.
JC may go after HC for drama, if we get him pleased with lit.
Same probably with Asoka and Toku.
Worst enemies are still the same as in the beginning.




The save

Looking good so far. If I were playing solo I would trade for sailing, start the lh and trade drama for math in 2 turns (if I still could). And I would start chopping another forest for when I thought I would have math to finish lh and start theatre. But then I would probably find out that I couldn't get math anymore, so I'd be mad. Then Asoka would go for music since he has drama and math instead of something useful and I'd be stuck until CS. So I'm not quite sure what to do here.

FiveAces said:

Looking good so far. If I were playing solo I would trade for sailing, start the lh and trade drama for math in 2 turns (if I still could). And I would start chopping another forest for when I thought I would have math to finish lh and start theatre. But then I would probably find out that I couldn't get math anymore, so I'd be mad. Then Asoka would go for music since he has drama and math instead of something useful and I'd be stuck until CS. So I'm not quite sure what to do here.

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Well, Asoka researching MT is probably no big problem, Note, he has calendar and theology by now, so is researching at neck breaking speed anyway.

We need the sheep (or quarried stone) hooked up in 9t for incense. Worker could: cottage plains(4t)> mv SW, road(3T)>road sheep (2t).

In 2 turns at pop7, we fire the sci and work both stones for fast lh>theatre. We'll need to run 10% at pop8 anyway, so we don't need a theatre till pop9, so we have time for lh first.

No matter who else reearches Math next, we should be able to trade Med + Alha to Liz for it, if we want. So we can trade Fred Med + Poly for Sailing now.

LowtherCastle said:

No matter who else reearches Math next, we should be able to trade Med + Alha to Liz for it, if we want. So we can trade Fred Med + Poly for Sailing now.

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Unless Fred does the same IBT. Or are they not trading with each other?

klarius said:

Turn log

T55:
Slight change of plan already. Don't build barracks for a turn, but research. Big waste in vanilla, but the barracks hammers are also no big boon.

Click to expand...

So we are sacrificing beakers for hammers and then converting them back in research at a worst rate

Appart from the minor detail, well done!

I wouldn't trade for Sailing unless we have secured Maths. Waiting a couple of turns for Drama can't hurt.

The turns of common war are going higher! We will probably have to wait for the PA to get our partner to attack the other two common-warrers.

Too bad we don't have a religion yet. WIth Asoka's commerce at greater than 2x the nearest AI, I'm tempted to bulb Philo, just to give us more insurance on the Liberalism slingshot.

klarius: Do you know why we're not Friendly with Fred at +9?

LowtherCastle said:

In 2 turns at pop7, we fire the sci and work both stones for fast lh>theatre. We'll need to run 10% at pop8 anyway, so we don't need a theatre till pop9, so we have time for lh first.

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klarius is just sacrificing hammers now in order to grow in 2 turns and to get the GS sooner.

You want to sacrifice GPP for hammers. Maybe it's a good idea. But IFTWABTS-S (I fear that we are becoming too short-sighted).

Can we clarify what do we generally prefer, GPP, hammers, growth, beakers? And then stick to our decision.

jesusin said:

So we are sacrificing beakers for hammers and then converting them back in research at a worst rate

Appart from the minor detail, well done!

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In fact I was transferring hammers from barracks to GLib (at a bad conversion rate admittedly). I needed a few more beakers to get more overflow into GLib and still make lit in 2.
Didn't now work out anyway with not getting math in time .

FiveAces said:

Unless Fred does the same IBT. Or are they not trading with each other?

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They're Pleased with each other, but I don't think it matters. SHe could give him Poly + Alpha.

LowtherCastle said:

klarius: Do you know why we're not Friendly with Fred at +9?

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He probably doesn't have enough ranks on us. Note we already passed 2 on our continent. He is also not that high currently. Maybe trading sailing for med and poly (or gifting him the techs if we want to avoid the trade) will fix this as he at least passes JC then.

jesusin said:

klarius is just sacrificing hammers now in order to grow in 2 turns and to get the GS sooner.

You want to sacrifice GPP for hammers. Maybe it's a good idea. But I fear that we are becoming too short-sighted.

Can we clarify what do we generally prefer, GPP, hammers, growth, beakers? And then stick to our decision.

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I think I've been maximally clear with my reasoning:

We need to grow to pop11 asap so we can have hammers, GPP, and research (= 2 cottages) all at once.​

That's the fat cross Gyathaar blessed us with.

0. klarius is getting the GS asap so we can build our Academy, if we want it (and, imo, so we can re-assign the scientist to production).
1. To grow to pop11 fastest, we need a theatre for the 2/10% (plus theatre also increases our chances of taking the silver).
2. To grow faster while working either sicentists or stones (-4), we need lh asap.
3. We can build the lh right now and finish it before we need the theatre, because we won't need the theatre till pop9, which is in ~9t.

One small point, if we are calculating with lots of chops:
What do we do when the incense gift runs out in 8 turns?
If we're sure we don't build any epic soon, we can use marble. Sheep or stone are alternatives.

jesusin said:

Is this an argument against rushing the GLib?
(just asking in order to take post #1000)

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That settles it! Kill the scientists, abandon the Academy, adopt slavery, mine the Marble, skip the cottages, get a level4 axe so we can build the HE, and lets crank out units!

Kill'em!! Kill'em all!!!






What? klarius has turned to the dark side and is already playing Hmm, then at least it's just a matter to avoid the cursed post. Was it 1074? Can't remember...

klarius said:

One small point, if we are calculating with lots of chops:
What do we do when the incense gift runs out in 8 turns?
If we're sure we don't build any epic soon, we can use marble. Sheep or stone are alternatives.

Click to expand...

I say use the stone for now. We can always swap it with the marble every 10 turns - on OCC we never need both at the same time.

klarius said:

One small point, if we are calculating with lots of chops:
What do we do when the incense gift runs out in 8 turns?
If we're sure we don't build any epic soon, we can use marble. Sheep or stone are alternatives.

Click to expand...

LowtherCastle said:

We need the sheep (or quarried stone) hooked up in 9t for incense. Worker could: cottage plains(4t)> mv SW, road(3T)>road sheep (2t).

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It says we can cancel teh deal in 9t, so if that means we could lose it in 8, then we could just go

cottage plains(3t partial)> mv SW, road(3T)>road sheep (2t)

I don't see any reason to chop right now. EDIT: Plus, we're still at +5 for forests. +9 overall. We've already traded our deer, probably our sheep. It would be nice to avoid using food for health.

FiveAces said:

I say use the stone for now. We can always swap it with the marble every 10 turns - on OCC we never need both at the same time.

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The stone hasn't even been quarried yet. Plus, now that we see KK has whales, stone is the only resource (pre-silver and Currency) we can trade to KK to get pluspoints for trading resources.