SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters

LowtherCastle · May 23, 2008

jesusin said:
I finally got you to speak my language!
Thank you. I am in love with HE now.

By the way, it pays for itself in 12t, not 6t. I forgot to divide the total food by 4t. (But but this is partially made up for by my also forgetting to consider our granary, so payback takes twice longer than originally calculated.)

Hope that doesn't spoil your new love affair. :blush:

LowtherCastle · May 23, 2008

klarius said:
Maybe try to read my posts again.
The limit from the cat would be 40/2.5 = 16 base hammers.
The limit from the natural production is floor(35 *2.5)/2.5 = 34h.

Edit:
Maybe an easy rule:
On a cheap build you cannot get more base hammer overflow than your base hammer production.
Fractions lost by non suited multipliers will let you lose one base hammer.

On an expensive build the max overflow is determined by the floor of the base hammer cost of the build.

Got it. I was forgetting that the bonuses on the cat lower its max overflow value. Thanks for your patience.

LowtherCastle · May 23, 2008

Okay, guys. Fruitful discussion, but as far as I can tell it doesn't change any of our ideas for Mîtiu's turnset, as summarized in this post.

Mîtiu, wazzup?

Erkon · May 23, 2008

Hmm, no response from Mîtiu

. I consequently assume that he is prevented from playing his turn set, and we will thus skip him. It means that Gnejs is up next. Gnejs, please prepare your PPP.

jesusin said:
Maybe Mîtiu would appreciate someone preparing a PPP based on our last 673 posts for him (?)

Alas, no. We decided during the last SGOTM that each player writes his own PPP to reduce the risk of misunderstanding. It's also an important part of the participation and to enable that each player is able to contribute to the game.

Gnejs · May 23, 2008

Ok then, "Got it!".

I expect to post a PPP tonight and play tomorrow if all goes well. As I see it we have one important topic to discuss, and that is Axes first or theatre first. I am undecided myself as I would love to send two axes away but am reluctant to unnecessarily run 20% culture. My concerns are two-fold, 1) will it delay our border expansion and does that matter, and 2) will it push back Civil Sevice by a turn? (With theatre first we get the border expansion in 8 turns. )

LowtherCastle · May 23, 2008

Sending the axes away has two purposes: capture a Fred worker and collect XP. Keeping them at home is for defense. We need 10XP by T95 or so at the soonest. If you guys have a plan to go Theatre first and still get 10XP by T100, I'd be delighted.

Personally, I think with 2 warriors at home and gold to upgrade them in a pinch, plus the ability to build another axe in 2t at a moment's notice is good enough defense. That's all I have to say on that. I know, no one believes that...

klarius · May 23, 2008

Gnejs said:
Ok then, "Got it!".

I expect to post a PPP tonight and play tomorrow if all goes well. As I see it we have one important topic to discuss, and that is Axes first or theatre first. I am undecided myself as I would love to send two axes away but am reluctant to unnecessarily run 20% culture. My concerns are two-fold, 1) will it delay our border expansion and does that matter, and 2) will it push back Civil Sevice by a turn? (With theatre first we get the border expansion in 8 turns. )

Expansion will not be delayed relative to 8 turns. But depending on growth and MM, it might be 7 turns with theater.

klarius · May 23, 2008

LowtherCastle said:
Personally, I think with 2 warriors at home and gold to upgrade them in a pinch, plus the ability to build another axe in 2t at a moment's notice is good enough defense. That's all I have to say on that. I know, no one believes that...

Sorry, but I don't want to waste gold on upgrading reg warriors, if it's not for otherwise losing the game.
We will get into money problems if we really build cats like crazy.
And I don't want to waste a tech on Asoka just to get a bit of money. We will have enough trouble to find enough bait for all the techs we would like to have from him.
So money should only come to even out a trade.
There will be no gold on top of the DoW (maybe a bit or we have to pay a bit), unless we do a trade with philo or CoL and lit, in which case we will not get the full value back.

LowtherCastle · May 23, 2008

klarius said:
Sorry, but I don't want to waste gold on upgrading reg warriors, if it's not for otherwise losing the game.
We will get into money problems if we really build cats like crazy.
And I don't want to waste a tech on Asoka just to get a bit of money. We will have enough trouble to find enough bait for all the techs we would like to have from him.
So money should only come to even out a trade.
There will be no gold on top of the DoW (maybe a bit or we have to pay a bit), unless we do a trade with philo or CoL and lit, in which case we will not get the full value back.

I agree that upgrading warriors is a last resort. Also agree on not trading a tech just to get some gold. On the money problems, I'm also aware of that eventuality. Hopefully we'll get Optics before it becomes unmanageable.

Since I'm just stabbing in the dark anyway, do you think you could you ask klarius the tricky how he would go about getting the 10XP asap and when he supposes that might occur?

klarius · May 23, 2008

LowtherCastle said:
I agree that upgrading warriors is a last resort. Also agree on not trading a tech just to get some gold. On the money problems, I'm also aware of that eventuality. Hopefully we'll get Optics before it becomes unmanageable.

Since I'm just stabbing in the dark anyway, do you think you could you ask klarius the tricky how he would go about getting the 10XP asap and when he supposes that might occur?

Well, I have no idea really, how to get a 10XP unit fast. But I also think delaying the theater isn't really doing much. I would build theater, then 2 axes which move out of the capital, but only as far that they can return faster than attackers could come up. Then when the warrior is home and we can be sure to get another axe before anything can come up, they can move to the battle field.

That's just about 5-6 turns from now, compared to sending 2 axes in 2 turns from now w/o knowing if anything is sneaking up on us (could be German units somewhere in India or England).

Gnejs · May 23, 2008

Pre-Play-Plan T75-T85 v1.0 v1.1 v1.2 v1.3

Pre-Play-Plan OVERVIEW

Set up a common war with Kublai and Asoka against Frederick. Tech towards Civil Service. Send two axes to the front for gaining 10 XP and unlocking the Heroic Epic. Grow city working food tiles. Chop axes first, then theatre. This add two turns of 20% culture and delays our border expansion by one turn as far as I can tell, from T82 to T83. Still think it is worth it.

BUILD QUEUE

Construct Academy on T75.
Axe (chopped) T76
Axe T77
Theatre T80
WB T82
Axe ... I hope that we can grab the cows and postpone the second WB for a while. I will monitor the health and threat situation and see if this is possible.

UNIT MOVES

Missionary scouts in and around Tiwanaku. Grog goes home and is relieved by the two axes. The axes are immediatley sent south, scouting for enemies along the way. Our culture winning the silver hill will help for scouting. We don't need to guard the pass N of Bombay since Asoka will be at war with Freddie. But the other pass will be guarded by Grog, later to be replaced by a fresh axe from Murkyopolis. Our two axes pass Washington otw to Hamburg, taking a route close to Cuzco looking for wounded German units.

WORKER ACTIONS

Chop forest, cottage river plains, ~~pre-chop two additional forests (E/E and E/NE)~~Mine hill, start mining another hill

CITY MM

Work bonus tiles + 2 coast at size 10. +3 coast at size 11 for two turns, then new cottage instead of coast.
Pop 11 on T78, culture at 20%
Culture down to 10% on T80 due to Theatre complete
Pop 12 on T82, work 3rd coast, culture up to 20% again

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS

Bribe Frederick to DoW on HC using Philosophy on T75. DoW Frederick on T77. Bribe Asoka to DoW Frederick on T77 using CoL (add Literature for Asoka if necessary). Bribe KK to dow on Freddie.
Trade for Monarchy, Construction, Currency (Compass), Metal Casting if they become available, and we get a good deal. No hurry because we don't need these techs urgently.
No trade with Asoka until Friendly.
Do NOT trade with Alex, Washington, HC, or anyone else that becomes the worst enemy of civs we want to keep friendly.

STOP CRITERIA

Anyone gets "too much on their hands".
Freddies units appear near our borders

OTHERS
Research: CoL (T77)->Civil Service
No civic or religion changes planned

LowtherCastle · May 23, 2008

If I'm not mistaken, postponing the theatre actually forces us to keep the 20% slider at pop11 even if we get the silver, and if we don't get it yet, you'll need 30% when we grow to pop11.

I"m uncofortable with us trading for any of those techs without first analyzing the warring situation Edit: and future trading situation (such as hwo are we going to get Consturction if you trade for Monarchy now?).

klarius · May 23, 2008

I would say: trade for nothing from Asoka until he is friendly (near the end of the turn-set hopefully). Then we get the full selection.
Other people one has to check. E.g. monarchy might be wide spread soon.

Edit: And BTW you missed one of the most coveted techs (though not likely to come up): metal casting

Gnejs · May 23, 2008

LowtherCastle said:
If I'm not mistaken, postponing the theatre actually forces us to keep the 20% slider at pop11 even if we get the silver, and if we don't get it yet, you'll need 30% when we grow to pop11.

I"m uncofortable with us trading for any of those techs without first analyzing the warring situation Edit: and future trading situation (such as hwo are we going to get Consturction if you trade for Monarchy now?).

Sure. But we will get the Silver, no doubt about it. We are putting in 26 culture per turn, Washington has no chance to match that. And we grow to pop 11 on T78 and complete the Theatre on T80 so I stand by my comment that we lose two turns of one notch higher on the culture slider.

I am a bit uncomfortable with the trading situation also. Is it enough to avoid trading with Washington, Alex, and HC? And post-pone Asoka until Friendly.
We should have Philosophy, CoL, and Literature (to some) available for trade. Seems like CoL+Literature for one tech or Philosophy+Literature for two could be possible. Or even CoL for Monarchy. Is there any reason to try to keep our almost-monopoly on Philosophy?

klarius · May 23, 2008

Gnejs said:
I am a bit uncomfortable with the trading situation also. Is it enough to avoid trading with Washington, Alex, and HC? And post-pone Asoka until Friendly.
We should have Philosophy, CoL, and Literature (to some) available for trade. Seems like CoL+Literature for one tech or Philosophy+Literature for two could be possible. Or even CoL for Monarchy. Is there any reason to try to keep our almost-monopoly on Philosophy?

There is no reason to avoid one trade with Washington, if he has something interesting. Just don't gift anything (reject demands).
Well, our almost monopoly (which might become monopoly again, if Fred gets killed) should still be good for some time. So I wanted to keep it until we really need other techs, which is only at the end of your turn-set, IMO.
We have enough to build, so getting new infrastructure build options doesn't help. I also don't see that we need cats before we have a bunch of units that can defend ok.
Currency would be nice, but I'm not sure that we want to close our options for other techs for it (LC will :cry:

if we have nothing to trade for construction when it gets available).

Gnejs · May 23, 2008

klarius said:
There is no reason to avoid one trade with Washington, if he has something interesting. Just don't gift anything (reject demands).

From Erkon's turnset report:

T66:
WE

Fred - Toku
Wash - Alex
JC - Wash
Asoka - Alex
Liza - Alex
KK - Wash
Alex - Wash
Isa - Wash

Are you sure that one tech trade with Washington does no harm? (Yes, I realize that JC and KK may have new worst enemies soon... :lol:

)

Btw, I also see no big hurry to trade for new techs. Though if I get a good deal with CoL and/or Literature I will probably take it since there is a risk that the value of these techs is going down.

klarius · May 23, 2008

Gnejs said:
Are you sure that one tech trade with Washington does no harm? (Yes, I realize that JC and KK may have new worst enemies soon... )

Btw, I also see no big hurry to trade for new techs. Though if I get a good deal with CoL and/or Literature I will probably take it since there is a risk that the value of these techs is going down.

What I mean is that we have around 1200g peaceTimeTradeValue allowance before we get a negative.
Once Asoka is friendly and we hopefully can trade some juicy techs from him, George will probably go WFYABTA.
But there's also no hurry there. We can delay that also to when we really do a big trading round, but should then take what we get from George, before we trade several techs from Asoka.

Erkon · May 23, 2008

Please note that the PPP-template is updated with the sequence part

LowtherCastle · May 24, 2008

klarius said:
LC will if we have nothing to trade for construction when it gets available.

Listen, if you guys all decide to research Music next, I'm resigned to going along with the GroupThink. :mischief:

Good luck, Gnejs! When are you planning to play? Tonight at 10?

LowtherCastle · May 24, 2008

Gnejs said:
WORKER ACTIONS

Chop forest, cottage river plains, pre-chop two additional forests (E/E and E/NE)

Please mine the river hill rather than pre-chopping. I don't care whether the cottage comes before or after the hill mine (we'll have enough wkr-turns either way, barely). Whoever goes after you (looks like me) will need that mine and another to set up the overflow for the HE in 1 turn. Pre-chopping can be done any time before T108.

SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters

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