SGOTM 07 - Smurkz

425BC: gift silver and furs to Lizzy.

400BC: zzz.

375BC:

I give in - it is not a monopoly, after all.

350BC:


325BC: get GS, and:

Very good!

Have any idea what caused us to get Education already on turn 102? The spread sheet was only missing something like 11 beakers difference, do you know where they came from?

Good call on Asoka, that +1 will hopefully be with us for the rest of the game (decays at 1/200). And he asked for the right tech, Paper wouldn't have been as obvious to give (though I think I would have argued for that too).

I'll have a look at the save in a few minutes.

The numbers seem off compared to the sheet. Nothing that matters, but I'd still like to know what tiles you've used, so I can fix the sheet and understand what we're at.

Feudalism is now well-known. Now could be a good time to start working the Khan perhaps. He will take for instance MC+Calendar+Lit for Feu+10 gp. Washington doesn't seem to consider him a worst enemy, since KK actually has a -1 Rival Trade demerit with him.

Do we want to cancel the mine for now and go chop a few forests instead? Is it more important to get Oxford or Iron? I haven't looked at the sheet yet what it would mean, but it seems to me that if we could speed up Oxford then that would be better.

Ah, both our trade routes are now up to +4 - sweet! That might explain the one turn early Education.

We can't trade for Machinery yet, but it should be available next turn if I count correctly. Right now Washington would give Feudalism for CS+Compass+140 gp, almost all we have. Machinery is just as expensive as Feudalism, but will be valued higher since so few have it. So it's not obvious that we will be able to trade for it right away. That means we can't go for Optics right away, so the "side track" to Philosophy first may well be our best option after all. Either we can trade Philosophy for Machinery with Washington then, or more will learn Machinery which will lead to potential trades.

Lizzy doesn't have CS yet, so Paper seems unlikely. There's a slim possibility she could have it through Theology, but then there would have been a time when she was listed as wanting Paper from us, and I can't recall (or find) any such occurence. So self-researching Philosophy and Optics should still put us first to Liberalism.

Looks good, going away for weekend, back on Monday.

I notice our second silver is only 49% Chinese, but we still control it.

Agree, Philosophy & Optics good choices.

Exactly how many forests are we going to chop? If it's just one, it probably doesn't matter much when we do it.

Niklas said:

The numbers seem off compared to the sheet. Nothing that matters, but I'd still like to know what tiles you've used, so I can fix the sheet and understand what we're at.

Click to expand...

Instead of working some pre-forge mines I worked coast pre-forge and marble and stone post-forge. On the next turn, all numbers should be the same or above your sheet.

Btw, the sheet counts too much food for the current turn. Nothing serious, p
Probably some scientists should really be coastal workers.

Feudalism is now well-known. Now could be a good time to start working the Khan perhaps. He will take for instance MC+Calendar+Lit for Feu+10 gp. Washington doesn't seem to consider him a worst enemy, since KK actually has a -1 Rival Trade demerit with him.

Click to expand...

Good idea.

Do we want to cancel the mine for now and go chop a few forests instead? Is it more important to get Oxford or Iron? I haven't looked at the sheet yet what it would mean, but it seems to me that if we could speed up Oxford then that would be better.

Click to expand...

I think so too. Iron is of little use, unless we want to sell/gift it to someone. I will chop two forests towards uni and Oxford. I will take the ones on the east border as they have access to sweet water, so we can change to farms later if desired.

I think that Optics is a higher priority than Philo at this point. (Still we need to start researching Philo now, of course). We can try to get some extra cash selling a few techs, so that we can (hopefully) pay for Machinery.

zyxy said:

Instead of working some pre-forge mines I worked coast pre-forge and marble and stone post-forge. On the next turn, all numbers should be the same or above your sheet.

Click to expand...

Good thinking! I tried to fix this up in the sheet, but I just can't get the numbers to add up to what we have. Never mind though, it's no big deal at this point. I'll just forcibly assert the numbers we have at this point and take it from there.

Btw, the sheet counts too much food for the current turn. Nothing serious, probably some scientists should really be coastal workers.

Click to expand...

Indeed, it should have said Coast x3 Sci x4. I believe the numbers are still somewhat correct though, except of course that they don't take the high-value trade routes into account.

I think so too. Iron is of little use, unless we want to sell/gift it to someone. I will chop two forests towards uni and Oxford. I will take the ones on the east border as they have access to sweet water, so we can change to farms later if desired.

Click to expand...

Good thinking.

I think that Optics is a higher priority than Philo at this point. (Still we need to start researching Philo now, of course). We can try to get some extra cash selling a few techs, so that we can (hopefully) pay for Machinery.

Click to expand...

I thought about that, but I don't think we can cash in enough to be honest. And then I'd rather wait and use Philo for the trade. But if a trade for Machinery becomes available before Philo is in, we should definitely do it and switch research to Optics immediately IMO. We can finish Philo after.

The other issue as I see it is when to build the galley(s). It would be nice to have enough cash to upgrade a galley to a caravel immediately when we get Optics, so there's another reason not to give away all our cash for Machinery. I'll see if I can find the time to look at a sheet that takes all these issues into account.

An an up note, I got no less than 3 pages written on the paper yesterday, and it's still quite a long time to the deadline. If I can keep up that pace, or even half that pace, I should be able to stick around.

Here's an attempt at a sheet:

I did some counting and I still think we should go for Pacifism after all. If we run Pac for 50 turns, with an average yield of +20 GPPpt, that's 1000 GPP, or most likely one extra GP. That's definitely worth the one turn revolution to me.

So, how many forests are we going to chop? How much health will it cost?

Two forests, which will cost 1 health (each forest gives +0.5 health).

Here's the sheet btw:

Sheet looks good to me. I propose to play up to Philo, that will be a good decision point.

Trades and diplo:

• Not a lot of cash around and I certainly don't want to sell CS to Lizzy for 110 gold. The other civs do not have gold supplies worth mentioning, and so I won't sell tech for it.
• Getting Feudalism from Khan seems ok at first sight, because he will sell it for outdated techs like MC, Calendar and Lit. However, the reason that I am not happy about this is that diplomatically we have little to gain, and something to lose. Indeed, Khan could be Lizzies worst enemy (and Washington's, though that is unlikely as he recently claimed it was Alex), and we don't want negatives with her. Furthermore, befriending Khan will be difficult as Niklas pointed out already. Feudalism should be easy to get later on, so I propose not to make this deal.
• Do we want to start befriending Caesar? This will probably alienate Toku and possibly (but unlikely, as above) Washington, but I am very much in favor of this, as Toku is a lost cause anyway. I propose to cancel our silver supply to Washington and reroute it to Caesar instead, getting 2 gpt for it.
• Do we want to end the war between Capac and Frederick? Lowest price is to give CS or MC+Compass+170 to Capac. I think ending this war will be useful diplomatically, but I propose to wait a few turns so that we can use Philo and avoid giving away CS or gold.
• Gifting to Izzy is apparently not useful, so I won't.

zyxy said:

Sheet looks good to me. I propose to play up to Philo, that will be a good decision point.

Click to expand...

Sounds good to me.

Not a lot of cash around and I certainly don't want to sell CS to Lizzy for 110 gold. The other civs do not have gold supplies worth mentioning, and so I won't sell tech for it.

Click to expand...

Agreed.

Getting Feudalism from Khan seems ok at first sight, because he will sell it for outdated techs like MC, Calendar and Lit. However, the reason that I am not happy about this is that diplomatically we have little to gain, and something to lose. Indeed, Khan could be Lizzies worst enemy (and Washington's, though that is unlikely as he recently claimed it was Alex), and we don't want negatives with her. Furthermore, befriending Khan will be difficult as Niklas pointed out already. Feudalism should be easy to get later on, so I propose not to make this deal.

Click to expand...

I'm fine with that.

Do we want to start befriending Caesar? This will probably alienate Toku and possibly (but unlikely, as above) Washington, but I am very much in favor of this, as Toku is a lost cause anyway. I propose to cancel our silver supply to Washington and reroute it to Caesar instead, getting 2 gpt for it.

Click to expand...

Sounds good to me. Yes Toku is a lost cause, and Caesar is someone we definitely want on our side. So go right ahead.

Do we want to end the war between Capac and Frederick? Lowest price is to give CS or MC+Compass+170 to Capac. I think ending this war will be useful diplomatically, but I propose to wait a few turns so that we can use Philo and avoid giving away CS or gold.

Click to expand...

Yeah, sounds good too.

Gifting to Izzy is apparently not useful, so I won't.

Click to expand...

She will be on our side regardless.

Good luck!

Niklas said:

She will be on our side regardless.

Click to expand...

Joking?

(Izzy is not Lizzy.)

Ah, doh. You're absolutely right that I misread it. Yeah, Izzy is a lost cause, no reason to waste our time on her.

325BC: cancel silver supply to Washington, and


300BC: harbor -> uni.

275BC: an English Confucianist Missionary enters our lands. We can cancel OB. And we lost the second silver mine to the English. We cannot cancel any of the silver deals right now, so I don't know what will happen. Lizzy claims her worst enemy is Toku.


Do we close borders or not?

Btw, Washington just declared on Alex. That must be the reason that his troops are marching through our lands.

EDIT: and here is the list of worst enemies, as far as I know right now.

Too bad about the silver. One of the deals will simply auto-cancel, let's hope it's the one to Lizzy.

I see no reason to close borders now, we don't stand to lose anything really by attracting a little Confusion. The only reason we closed borders last time was that we didn't want to risk a delay in getting Judaism.

What do you mean when you say "Said so"? Do they volonteer that information when you call them up?

Also there's a problem with the Rival Trade demerits, since X could trade with Y's worst enemy, get rival trade demerits from Y, and thus become Y's worst enemy because of it.

+10 wasn't enough for Washington to become Friendly, not surprising. If we declare war on Alex, we get an immediate +1 Shared War bonus, and another +1 for every 8 turns at war. We would get a -1 Declared on Friend demerit with KK, but we seem to have given up on him anyway. I think we should declare right away - Alex can't reach us anyway.

Asoka now has Machinery for trade, but we don't have anything to give him for it. Washington now has Compass so our trade chances there have decreased as well, but Philosophy should hopefully still do the trick.

Right now Asoka would be Friendly with us even without the Shared Faith bonuses - that's very good for the future.