SGOTM 07 - Murky Waters

LowtherCastle said:
I see two goals for klarius' turnset: 1) KK captures Antium, Rome and Cuzco, and 2) Liz and Washington need to start fighting wars that will decimate their units over the next 20 turns.
Click to expand...

I don't like 2). I prefer KK+us against somebody and that's all.

If we were going to attack one of them in the following 4 turns, it might be ok (not sure).
See what happened when we attacked JC 20 turns after setting him on someone. Was he any weaker?
 
Well, I got it.
I don't see that KK will capture Cuzco soon.
Even if he came now with a group of 3 maces (expecting more from the AI is wishful thinking), we couldn't help enough to take it.
Alex' feeble efforts will not do much and they will probably make peace anyway at some time.

My take now:
Get GW and Liz on JC, Alex and Isa. Concentrate our troops on Antium so we get anything at all out of this war. The workers are not really helpful there and I may have to risk them.

I would love to involve Asoka also, but only if we could get him on Fred also, to split his troops (I don't believe that he could take Hamburg now). But as we have an useless CF this means either give him a lot techs or DoW and take the attitude hits from Liz and GW.

Generally, I think it's not good to just let our neighbors develop peacefully, even if one risks them taking a city. They will still build units every now and then and store them.

I think we should go into FR (after we have all DoWs we want from GW and Liz). Better have decent relations with everybody, instead of friendly with our neighbours. We may lose our resource trades, if we don't watch the attitude of the overseas nations. Also pacifism is costing us quite some gold currently and it's doubtful that we can (and want to) trade enough to stay afloat until communism.
 
jesusin said:
If we were going to attack one of them in the following 4 turns, it might be ok (not sure).
See what happened when we attacked JC 20 turns after setting him on someone. Was he any weaker?
Click to expand...
Well, it was not enough to set him on one :D. And we don't know what would have happened w/o that. Maybe he would have taken Berlin and Beshbalik by now.
 
jesusin said:
What would be the point?

Cuzco would lose pop, would lose its religion, would fall on who knows which hands...

I am completely against razing it or handing it to Alex/other AI.
Click to expand...

The point is it focuses KK since he will only have 2 cities to send units to right now, and they're in order on the map, so he won't (shouldn't) split his forces. It doesn't matter who's hands it falls in since we would take it when we DOW whichever AI holds it, so the latest would be before we go for Liz. It also allows us to kill off Wash's lbm's without needing to bribe a military tech.

We can give it religion later if needed since we have a monestary.

And since KK is the only one I've seen with a settler running around, he is most likely to resettle the empty space, which is effectively the same as taking it, but it's even better since he doesn't lose any units doing so.
 
FiveAces said:
And since KK is the only one I've seen with a settler running around, he is most likely to resettle the empty space, which is effectively the same as taking it, but it's even better since he doesn't lose any units doing so.
Click to expand...
GW has a settler in Washington, so he would most likely to win the race.
 
klarius said:
Well, I got it.
I don't see that KK will capture Cuzco soon.
Even if he came now with a group of 3 maces (expecting more from the AI is wishful thinking), we couldn't help enough to take it.
Alex' feeble efforts will not do much and they will probably make peace anyway at some time.

My take now:
Get GW and Liz on JC, Alex and Isa. Concentrate our troops on Antium so we get anything at all out of this war. The workers are not really helpful there and I may have to risk them.

I would love to involve Asoka also, but only if we could get him on Fred also, to split his troops (I don't believe that he could take Hamburg now). But as we have an useless CF this means either give him a lot techs or DoW and take the attitude hits from Liz and GW.

Generally, I think it's not good to just let our neighbors develop peacefully, even if one risks them taking a city. They will still build units every now and then and store them.

I think we should go into FR (after we have all DoWs we want from GW and Liz). Better have decent relations with everybody, instead of friendly with our neighbours. We may lose our resource trades, if we don't watch the attitude of the overseas nations. Also pacifism is costing us quite some gold currently and it's doubtful that we can (and want to) trade enough to stay afloat until communism.
Click to expand...

I think most of this makes sense. Though we should be careful with Lizzie so that she doesn't capture any cities. Perhaps set Lizzie on Isa+Alex and Wash on JC.


I agree completely on focusing on Antium, and I disagree completely on razing Cuzco. :)
 
I'm ok with klarius plan. I would even agree to DOW Fred and being Asoka in (mutual war will help offset negative attitude with the others).

Perhaps set Lizzie on Isa+Alex and Wash on JC
Click to expand...

This I don't so much agree with. Let everybody's units kill each other in the middle of the continent. If Madrid falls it's ok since the cultural defense will be knocked down to 0, and it shouldn't be held very long. With wash only on JC, he might actually snatch a city under kk's nose if he goes through cuzco fast enough.

I'll relax my stance on razing cuzco - only if kk has a settler within 1-2 moves. which won't happen and therefore we should move the stack down to antium.
 
PPP T115-125

BUILD QUEUE:
Units :D. As we have no workers at home to chop, girlie buildings are out anyway.

UNIT MOVES:
The two stacks will move towards Antium.
The southern stack will wait one turn for the road. will move E together with the workers. No stack splitting near the enemy, LC.
New units collect again in the Cuzco region.
One worker tries to get back home, the other will be at risk next turn. :eek:
Workers will move E of banana to road.

CITY MM:
What's needed. Basically the same as now with maybe a few PH turns, if it looks I want more choks/maces in the mix.

DIPLOMATIC ACTIONS:
Trade for maps and attitude, OBs on the other continent. I want to know what resource options might come up, so scouting the coastline is not enough.
Set GW on JC, Alex and Isa.
Set Liz on JC, Alex and Isa.
Bribe some civics changes with GW and Liz to slow them down.
OB with Fred, to get some new move options.

CIVICS CHANGE:
Free religion. I want to stay in good relations with Saladin and Cyrus (and maybe Hatty later). Mansa isn't much help in this game, so we cannot just ignore attitude.

RESEARCH:
Sci method. Hopefully (GS) start communism.

STOPPING POINTS:
Before doing anything crazy not in the PPP.
 
A new finding from the SDK front:
I wondered why bribing KK into any civics is redded out.
The problem is (maybe a bug) that you cannot bribe any civic option once the civ is in it's favorite civic, not just the options in this category. So bribing KK into FR is out for this game. He might still go into it on his own, but needs around 2 religions per city to do so.
 
klarius - PPP looks great. One question though: what are you trading to change the hindu's civics? We had sort of agreed earlier we were going to scale back on trading on the home continent. Or are you getting the civics changes along with the DOW's?

Good klarification on the civics. I had always wondered about that. Note this means once Liz gets liberalism (and converts to FR) she will go unbribable as well.

EDIT: You should stop if Antium and Rome fall. Maybe you're being pessimistic and that's what you meant by something crazy ;)
 
FiveAces said:
klarius - PPP looks great. One question though: what are you trading to change the hindu's civics? We had sort of agreed earlier we were going to scale back on trading on the home continent. Or are you getting the civics changes along with the DOW's?
Click to expand...
Well I thought to ask to do it for free :D, or add it to the DoW trade for GW and Liz. Slavery is the option I thought of, as the AI also loves to change out of it again for another turn of revolt (but they have to keep it for 10 turns if bribed). Liz may do a revolt to FR in the meantime, so has quite some revolts to do :).

Edit: Deleted Asoka for civics change. He's spiritual and bribing him to slavery doesn't really do anything. And I want him to stay in OR, for the hope he finally builds some missionaries.
 
FiveAces said:
EDIT: You should stop if Antium and Rome fall. Maybe you're being pessimistic and that's what you meant by something crazy ;)
Click to expand...
Well, if Antium falls, I will probably stop, but I don't expect to read anything else than "go for Rome" :D.
The crazy thing was more in the direction of stop the war with JC after Antium and go for whoever (if any) has taken Cuzco in the meantime.
 
klarius said:
PPP T115-125
Set GW on JC, Alex and Isa.
Set Liz on JC, Alex and Isa.
Bribe some civics changes with GW and Liz to slow them down.
Click to expand...

Please do this in a single bribe, or we will be helping them instead of slowing them.

klarius said:
CIVICS CHANGE:
Free religion. I want to stay in good relations with Saladin and Cyrus (and maybe Hatty later). Mansa isn't much help in this game, so we cannot just ignore attitude.
Click to expand...
No Free Religion.
We will revolt to FR and FS just before PA, in order to bribe KK into them.

I don't give a brit about the other continent's attitude. What if we lose 1 happy or 1 health? We are doing a unit a turn and getting to Comm the same turn anyway.

As for the value of FR itself, it is clear now that we will get the PA before KK gets the cities, so losing a unit to a revolt is the last thing we need.
 
jesusin said:
He has just had a revolution to one of the Feud Civics. No bug that I know of.
Click to expand...
No, if it's not allowed by a recent revolution, the option isn't there at all.
But he's telling "That would go against anything we stand for", which is called DENIAL_FAVORITE_CIVIC in the program. And I verified in the code that this is really coming up for every civic option as soon as a civ is in it's favorite civic.
 
jesusin said:
Please do this in a single bribe, or we will be helping them instead of slowing them.


No Free Religion.
We will revolt to FR and FS just before PA, in order to bribe KK into them.

I don't give a brit about the other continent's attitude. What if we lose 1 happy or 1 health? We are doing a unit a turn and getting to Comm the same turn anyway.

As for the value of FR itself, it is clear now that we will get the PA before KK gets the cities, so losing a unit to a revolt is the last thing we need.
Click to expand...

EDIT: I like your reference to the brits. :D


Agree with the single bribe, and klarius has confirmed this is his intent.

The resource issue is a bit more complex. Right now you are correct we can afford to lose either. However in a few turnsets a couple of things will happen. 1) We will want to build more expensive units more often, like maces and grenadiers. 2) People will start running emancipation. 3) the available resource will dissappear (maybe to KK, which means he might not have a spare whatever to gift us after the PA, which means we lose 2 resources) 4) I can't tell if you've factored in the +10%:science: from FR when you say we'll get there the same turn. If not, and we get the PA a turn earlier in exchange for one unit and some happy/health somewhere, I'd say that's a good move.
 
jesusin said:
P
No Free Religion.
We will revolt to FR and FS just before PA, in order to bribe KK into them.

I don't give a brit about the other continent's attitude. What if we lose 1 happy or 1 health? We are doing a unit a turn and getting to Comm the same turn anyway.
Click to expand...
We are currently trading 4 happy faces from the other continent. That's not something to ignore completely. We could probably do it w/o going FR, but why really. One unit not built is the same as one unit lost and we will lose a lot. I still have the hope that we can do w/o globe in this game. If we don't get us all resource happy options that will probably not work and we end up with a much bigger delay building globe.

It doesn't look like KK can provide anything soon. At some time we will also go against Liz and Asoka and lose these trades also.

As I stated above the bribing of KK will not work anyway, so FS is of no value for us and the double revolt gains us nothing.
 
I hate to find us discussing FR now. :mad:

If we really want to go to FR (I don't think so), we should have revolted the turn we learnt Liberalism!
 
jesusin said:
I hate to find us discussing FR now. :mad:

If we really want to go to FR (I don't think so), we should have revolted the turn we learnt Liberalism!
Click to expand...
Well, I did say before your turn-set that I wanted FR soon. This was rejected, because we decided that we need our first decent stack soon. I'm OK with that, but now I don't see that one unit makes that much difference any more.
 
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