Making the Doviello more unique

You could let unfavourable terrain inflict damage, For example 10 damage per round but can't kill a unit (keeps 10% Hp). That way you wouldn't loose a hero or some other expensive unit just because he travels through unfavourable terrain but if you try to launch an full offense straight through the sahara you are in big troubles.

Okay, so not saying its going to happen, but just exploring the idea.

If we removed workers and work boats from the doviello what would we need to add? We would definitly need to allow them to hook up bonuses without roads, what else?

What would happen if they captured enemy workers/slaves?

How would they upgrade mana? (because the ai doesnt deal well with mixed worker and combat code ai adepts cant upgrade mana nodes, workers have to do it)

What if they captured land with improvements on it?

not sure I really like the idea of removing workers, it was the only one of xienwolf's ideas that I didn't love I think his other ideas all deserve to be thought about before this one really, but that's just my 2 cents of course.

it could be cool and it sure is unique so it's worth a try. it might be a bit of a nightmare to code but who knows.

I'm trying to keep it as easy as possible here so bear with me if it sounds simple:

captured workers/slave could give a production bonus to the nearest city exactly like chopping.

mana is trickier, but you could just give them a special worker available at KotE that can only build mana nodes. ( named "channeler" or something like that) edit: since they would be useless if you have no nodes to build it would be nice if they can be sacrificed for a very little bit of production so that after they're done you get some hammers back instead of just sitting them around for ages.

captured improvements should be kept imho, it's a good incentive to conquest. they should get decreased bonuses from them though due to it being possibly overpowered and that they'd probably be "duh?" about how to use them

edit2: ok, now that I've thought about it for a while I REALLY like it. it's unique and cool. I just needed a couple minutes to digest the news

If we removed workers and work boats from the doviello what would we need to add? We would definitly need to allow them to hook up bonuses without roads, what else?

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aside from building or something that provides food, not sure what is needed yet, have to think more.

What would happen if they captured enemy workers/slaves?

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give winterborn promotion to all captured units(possible???) make the winterborn promotion give -150% work rate

How would they upgrade mana? (because the ai doesnt deal well with mixed worker and combat code ai adepts cant upgrade mana nodes, workers have to do it)

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I have been having a lot of fun with making all types of mana available at start of game except base mana. much more strategy, like mithril/gunpowder you need to find what you need and obtain it. allow doviello to not need nodes structure to get their mana, maybe it needs to be in their fat cross???

What if they captured land with improvements on it?

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reward for being militaristic, i am ok with this.

Perhaps all tiles in Doviello culture are roaded (removed if a the city is razed or a tile is stolen)?

Improvements- Doviello units auto pillage/get a free pillage when they move?

Slaves/Workers- Disbanded as soon as they are captured, like when an AI captures a worker? Can be added to city for food/pop?

Mana- .... Dunno- Mana in Doviello territory is randomly upgraded? Don't seem like much of a magic race to me, but that could hinder them a little, or:

Resources revisited- Perhaps they could have cheapish buildings that would provide resources/mana types? Not sure how to balance that. How about no happiness or health resources, just mana/strategic, and Doviello have no Trade Network? (that would also be a problem with not improvements)

el duderino: yeah, quick response. clearly you were nicking my obvious ideas

they could sell the workers and slaves for money/production,
improvements get razed aoutomatically by culture spread
would it be possible for them to have mana upgrade randomly (and change mana type randomly, provided that the prereq technology had been discovered) id imagine doviello shamans arent to preoccupied by concentrating on a type of mana but rather listen to whatever "spirit" they are channeling.

wow three responses before i finish typing

If we removed workers and work boats from the doviello what would we need to add? We would definitly need to allow them to hook up bonuses without roads,
.

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You can give them a hidden tech that enables trade on all tiles (idea is from star trek mod, where a tech enables on space (e.g. tundra) )and remove the ability to build roads and farms from their (special) workers. So they can build Cottages (should be possible to make a special cottage, that never grows to a village) and Pastures. They will miss out on Corn and Wheat, but it's meant like that. And if they conquer someone elses lands with farms on it - well the paws just get enslaved...

Don't remove the workers altogether, but block Dovello from building anything exept roads and mana nodes for the AI. Ressources get hooked once you get a road.
All captured improvements get autorazed and you get the money for it.

Chip56 said:

Don't remove the workers altogether, but block Dovello from building anything exept roads and mana nodes for the AI. Ressources get hooked once you get a road.
All captured improvements get autorazed and you get the money for it.

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And if they capture a non-doviello worker?

I love the flavor of the idea and the love the visual of the doviello lands being sparse. But its a massive nerf for them. How do we balance it?

I don't think removing workers and work boats is desirable. Some ideas:

1) a tundra-only improvement buildable only by the Doviello. If you're going to base it on the reality of the tundra, this could be something like a caribou hunting ground or a musk ox hunting ground (would provide 2 food on the plot, maybe?)

2) I saw chip56's idea of having tundra inflict damage on enemy units; I'd been thinking something similar. RFC has the Russians' unique "General Winter" power, which does this.

3) You could instead borrow RFC's unique "Raid" power for the Vikings, which gives 5x the amount of gold from pillaging.

4) Don't remember offhand what UB the Doviello have, but IIRC in BtS the Vikings have a building that replaces the lighthouse and gives naval units a promotion.

And of course, you can do analogous things with the Malakim (Malakim-only improvement buildable in deserts, deserts inflict damage on non-Malakim units, etc.). (I know this is a Doviello thread, but people seem to link the two civs in terms of trying to distinguish them based on their favored terrain.)

Kael said:

And if they capture a non-doviello worker?

I love the flavor of the idea and the love the visual of the doviello lands being sparse. But its a massive nerf for them. How do we balance it?

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non-doviello workers could be morphed to doviello ones upon capture. settlers become workers upon capture IIRC, should be easy.

they could just have some techs give them improved yields for some types of plots, like +1 food from riverside tiles with sanitation and +1 production from hills with mining/bronzeworking etc. and their cities could get a % bonus to production when building military units, to make them even better in what's already their specialty

[to_xp]Gekko;7232173 said:

non-doviello workers could be morphed to doviello ones upon capture. settlers become workers upon capture IIRC, should be easy.

they could just have some techs give them improved yields for some types of plots, like +1 food from riverside tiles with sanitation and +1 production from hills with mining/bronzeworking etc. and their cities could get a % bonus to production when building military units, to make them even better in what's already their specialty

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You could also increase the yield they get from camps (more food, hammers, or commerce, or some combination), to reflect their experience living in tundra.

Or, like the Lanun, give them a tech available only to them that reveals a tundra-based resource (caribou? musk oxen?) that only the Doviello can see?

both cool ideas, but if we are to give them no improvements the camp one is obsolete

Kael said:

And if they capture a non-doviello worker?

I love the flavor of the idea and the love the visual of the doviello lands being sparse. But its a massive nerf for them. How do we balance it?

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They could get a special slave for each unit they killed (worker they conquer), which can be used for either +2 or +2 in a city (like specialists) plus a trait that increases their pillage amount which they get. Further the Autopillage gives them a bit money as well.

[to_xp]Gekko;7232204 said:

both cool ideas, but if we are to give them no improvements the camp one is obsolete

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True: in that case, we could give them increased yield from deer and furs, without the camp.

And if they capture a non-doviello worker?

I love the flavor of the idea and the love the visual of the doviello lands being sparse. But its a massive nerf for them. How do we balance it?

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Can't we block a Civilisation from building something instead of units?
Like the elves who can't chop woods and build on top of them?
I think we should focus the balance on the military: make them cheaper/ stronger.
Or you could get some special promotions whenever you raze/ capture something (if thats possible).
For example free mobility for all units within 2-3 tiles if you capture a city that had a horse pasture in its fat cross.

Taking the above slave idea a bit further, they could capture different type of slaves based on the type of enemies they destroy, adepts/disciple units could give slaves that can be settled for research or commerce, workers/melee/horse units could give production, and recon/archery could give food? We could give them an entire slave based econony based on conquering the other nations. This could also work into the idea that they don't build a large number of buildings. To keep this from being overpowered, would perhaps need to deny them any of the civics/buildings that give bonus stats per specialist(but them running scholarship or building the great library doesn't make much thematic sense anyhow?).

Could also perhaps try to limit it to x slaves per point of population in the city if you wanted them not to be able to build uber citys and keep more the idea of having a large number of smaller cities.

First, in case it was missed, I edited the original idea post with the following:

As an addition for the Great Beasts idea: Allow the Doviello to lump all of their GPP from each city into the capitol. Since the concept will be to have a lot of cities with small output, resulting in an empire that can produce units as quickly as your rival, even though you have cities which cannot, GPP will be hard to come by (ideally probably only 2 points per Totem, thus at best maybe 8 points from each city, if you don't care which Beast you are working on). With such small output per city, Beasts would be very far between and you'd not see more than 3 or 4 per game.

Kael said:

Okay, so not saying its going to happen, but just exploring the idea.

If we removed workers and work boats from the doviello what would we need to add? We would definitly need to allow them to hook up bonuses without roads, what else?

What would happen if they captured enemy workers/slaves?

How would they upgrade mana? (because the ai doesnt deal well with mixed worker and combat code ai adepts cant upgrade mana nodes, workers have to do it)

What if they captured land with improvements on it?

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You are aiming slightly to the left of the idea I proposed. What I propose is that the Doviello get something like 3 2 3 from every tile. Doesn't matter if it is a mountain, Ocean, or a Ancient Forest with an Enclave on it.

Under that, the most likely result of gaining territory with improvements on it would be that the player will pillage them for gold since leaving it there is pointless, and pillaging gives you some small benefit at least.

Most elegant way to handle capturing workers/Slaves would be to give them a UU version of Worker/Slave which is an exact copy of their Beastman. Then anytime they attempt to capture one, they get a warrior instead, and no worker to worry about.

Now, I can't remember precisely why I said no workers in the first place, other than it makes them VERY different, but the 2 things it makes difficult are no Roads, and no upgrading Mana for the AI. The roads I would dodge by maybe giving their Racial Trait a Flat Move cost ability? But then Commando is useless for the civ... so maybe a hefty reduction in tile move costs? Then no desert or forest anywhere in erebus slows them down, but they can still make use of enemy roads when they gain Commando. Downside on that is that you still gain benefit from roads, so you will be begging other players to build roads for you, or seeking out well-roaded territory. So overall I like blocking them from using roads at all, and just saying that Commando is useless for the civ.


Mana nodes: Might need some python to upgrade the mana nodes for the AI. Players won't have a problem since they can use Adepts properly. Or allow Adepts to spawn little "node-builder" units which are Invisible-Submarine to hide them from the world, and die after they upgrade a node. Course, then once there are no nodes to upgrade you have some useles units spawning, so I think that having Python handle all node upgrades for the Doviello might be best.


Other tricky thing now that I think about it: If all resources auto-connect, Doviello will be able to have raw mana available for a trade resource by leaving a node non-upgraded. So need to make that a non-trade item, or possibly when writing the AI python, extend it to the Human players as well (Adaptive style pop-up anytime that you connect Raw Mana which asks you to choose a type for it)


A slightly different approach might be to enable a couple of "Sitting Circle" buildings which work using base-BtS corporation mechanics (convert the raw mana to a specific type of mana). Then any time the Doviello have raw mana they can build a Sitting Circle to convert it into Chaos or Entropy or somesuch. Of course you'd have to give them a seperate building for each mana type, and they couldn't make more than 1 of each type per city. But that wouldn't be a HUGE limit for them since they will have FAR more cities than mana nodes.

I like xienwolf's idea for upgrading mana nodes: a unit that consumes itself by building the mana node just like workboats.

the no road idea looks like it's kinda difficult to implement, but I'm sure if there is a way to make it work you guys will make it come true.

anyway, about the "how to keep them balanced if they have no improvement" issue, I had this idea: what if we "deepen" their bond with animals? it would fit them well and be cool, fun and unique.

like, giving both leaders a trait that makes them start at peace with animals. this will help their early game and allow them to get a lead early on. then let animals spawn even if there is no fog of war, even inside their cultural borders, and just let them wonder around in doviello territory. doviello tiles with forests on them could have a chance to spawn random animals depending on the terrain too ( tigers in jungle, wolfs in forest etc. ). then let them capture animals just by moving a unit ( not all units, just appropriate ones of course ) on a tile with an animal on it ( cuz they are at peace with them and can't attack them of course. this could be tricky cuz animals are HN, AFAIK, but still ) . this way they could easily get nice numbers of free expendable troops. not overpowered cuz animals suck at attacking cities anyway, but it would certainly make it a nightmare to have doviello around. just like it should be imho

If we're working off the idea that Doviello tiles give a fixed yield, then why not allow them the full range of worker actions? Why not allow them to build roads and hook up resources just like everyone else, but those farmed/plantationed/mined resources don't change the tile yields? Thus they still have the incentive to acquire territory for resources, but they are not so dependent on nearby food resources to make decent cities; nor do cities near high-commerce resources hold as much attraction.

3f/2h/3c per tile seems very high to me, especially in the early game. Xienwolf, is your idea that the universal tile yields would increase with certain technologies? Because 3f/2h/3c seems reasonable in the endgame, but early on Id rather see something like 2f/1h/1c.