YosefNES I: Oif Gelt, Oif Gelt, un Oif Gelt

OOC: There's no "need" to add Cardinals to the NES. They already exist

“With longbows and men at arms, Richard II of England slew the cream of the French nobility on the fields of Argenteuil. At Cherbourg, the power of the English was forever broken by powder and shot.” –Comte de Carman

It was a lovely winter. There was enough snow for the children to frolic and be merry in the weather, yet there wasn’t too much for it to become a hassle. Smoke flew up to the Heavens from the chimneys of the abodes of the poor to the country estates of the powerful. In France, fortunes were to be made at the roll of the dice. Men of nothing rose overnight to become men of substance, of character and class. It was never more obvious than in Paris.

“It’s terribly cold isn’t it?”

“You seem surprised mon ami. Who would possibly pay for the firewood to fuel the massive chambers? Surely not we, the humble men of the Third Estate.”

With an intrepid laugh, Henri pointed at the elaborately dressed clergymen. “Alexandre, I have heard that the Bishop of Luçon has taken for himself a new mistress to the detriment of the faithful.”

I could only shake my head at Henri. I had known him for almost twenty years much like our fathers had known each other since childhood. I, as was Henri, was a direct descendant of Louis IX of France by grace of the House of Bourbon. We are admittedly one of the more flamboyant of the young nobles in France, by the sheer presence of our families’ influence and power.

And Henri? Not much if you look at him, just another young French noble dressed out in the finest fashions. Yet he is the Dauphin of France, the glorified Heir. And that was why we were engaged in our latest escapade, except this escapade was actually a political experiment. A political experiment in which we hope would be able to create a more unified government and would not involve my loss of a head. My head, since Henri’s head is pretty much going to stay on regardless of what happens.

“Are you sure this will work Henri? What makes you think the three Estates will even come together? They’ve always met separately. Our nobles and high clergymen may associate with lawyers, doctors and men of coin in private but they would never do so in the Estates-General,” as I pointed out futilely. It was too late anyways, the deed had been done and the adjacent chambers had long been accidentally “caved in” by the snow.

With a quick motion, Henri flipped a coin on the table. “I never understood their pretensions. Some of them are extremely wealthy while the other half is some of the poorest lot known to man, clinging to the power and prestige of their ancestors. There are two specimens of French nobility, ones with everything and ones with nothing. I prefer to see people with energy. People with lovely daughters.” With a twinkle in the eye, Henri leapt to his feet and walked towards the exit. “Come Alexandre, the meeting is about to start.”

Anyway, the election of bishops you mention is really irrelevant, as the important figure, the Metropolitan of Yaroslavl, is chosen through more traditional methods.

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a) It's not called Lithuania-Novgorod for nothing, though;
b) The Novgorodian bishop was pretty much autonomous in OTL, and here it would be more difficult to change because of "a".

I'd say that between the relative increase in the central power of the Patriarch of Constantinople and the more prominent role of Novgorod in the unified Russian state as compared to OTL, there would be a pretty interesting conflict ongoing between the two and their various allies. In particular, the Lithuanians might support either the centralising influence of Constantinople (as supported/represented by the Greek-appointed Metropolitan of Kiev in Yaroslavl; no title change ) or assist a reactionary democratic conciliar movement against it, presumably led by the Bishop of Novgorod.

Of course "centralizing" from a not insignificant distance like Lithuania to Constantinople would be rather laughable, but it makes for good rhetoric... nobody want's to be religiously under the thumb of a large neighbor.

Why would you say that Constantinople would be a more centralizing influence? Would it not be better to have a local head of the Church from Novogorod, one that presumably can be influenced by the State if necessary?

If I understand correctly, the Patriarch of Constantinople has gone up in power greatly as of late, becoming an independent force rather than a mere instrument of the Emperor. By tradition, the Metropolitan of Kiev (whose residence just happened to move around a bit after the 13th century) was appointed by the Patriarch and the Emperor; now the Patriarch seems to be asserting his power in general and so is in position to appoint the Metropolitan by himself (correct me if I am wrong; the Byzantine situation is as complicated as is appropriate). Now, ofcourse the ecclesiastical power in Russia itself would be centralised by the Metropolitan, but since that Metropolitan is appointed from Constantinople and usually indeed comes from Constantinople or some fancy Greek monastery, I brought up the influence of Constantinople. As for the Bishop of Novgorod, he is but a local magistrate, and though possibly the most influential man in the most influential Russian city, he still is formally subordinated to the Metropolitan of Kiev in Yaroslavl. So a conflict and possibly a schism between Yaroslavl and Novgorod or between Russia and Greece seems reasonably likely, especially with Thlayli in charge on the other side of this. And it is a fine tradition for Russian Grand Princes to variously clash with Greek ecclesiastical powers and meddle in religious affairs, ofcourse.

Here is a list of nations from whom I have not recieved orders. I accidently deleted two sets of orders, and I am no sure whose, so they are listed below. If you were one of these two, don't freak out, just resend/forward m the orders.

Haudenosaunee
France
Wales
England
Netherlands
Hungary
Lithuania-Novgorod
Ottoman Empire
Chagatai
Ming China
Mupata
Brunei

If your nation appears here, for the love of G-d, please send orders.

das said:

a) It's not called Lithuania-Novgorod for nothing, though;
b) The Novgorodian bishop was pretty much autonomous in OTL, and here it would be more difficult to change because of "a".

I'd say that between the relative increase in the central power of the Patriarch of Constantinople and the more prominent role of Novgorod in the unified Russian state as compared to OTL, there would be a pretty interesting conflict ongoing between the two and their various allies. In particular, the Lithuanians might support either the centralising influence of Constantinople (as supported/represented by the Greek-appointed Metropolitan of Kiev in Yaroslavl; no title change ) or assist a reactionary democratic conciliar movement against it, presumably led by the Bishop of Novgorod.

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The whole point of the Metropolitinate in Yaroslavl, as discussed during the time line development, was to avoid placing both the secular and religious capital in Novgorod. The Lithuanians and Novgorodians essentially agreed that the ruling hous would be Lithuanian and the capital city Novgorodian; adding the religious centre to Novgorod would throw that carefully balanced compromise completely off. Yes, Yaroslavl is still closer to Novgorod than Lithuania culturally as well as geographically, but the point is that it is not Novgorod, not Vilnius for that matter.

das said:

If I understand correctly, the Patriarch of Constantinople has gone up in power greatly as of late, becoming an independent force rather than a mere instrument of the Emperor. By tradition, the Metropolitan of Kiev (whose residence just happened to move around a bit after the 13th century) was appointed by the Patriarch and the Emperor; now the Patriarch seems to be asserting his power in general and so is in position to appoint the Metropolitan by himself (correct me if I am wrong; the Byzantine situation is as complicated as is appropriate). Now, ofcourse the ecclesiastical power in Russia itself would be centralised by the Metropolitan, but since that Metropolitan is appointed from Constantinople and usually indeed comes from Constantinople or some fancy Greek monastery, I brought up the influence of Constantinople. As for the Bishop of Novgorod, he is but a local magistrate, and though possibly the most influential man in the most influential Russian city, he still is formally subordinated to the Metropolitan of Kiev in Yaroslavl. So a conflict and possibly a schism between Yaroslavl and Novgorod or between Russia and Greece seems reasonably likely, especially with Thlayli in charge on the other side of this. And it is a fine tradition for Russian Grand Princes to variously clash with Greek ecclesiastical powers and meddle in religious affairs, ofcourse.

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The Patriarchate is not quite that powerful yet. In any case, since the fall of the Byzantine Empire and the rise of the Byzantine city state and the rise of the Lithuanian monarchy, the choice of who becomes the Metropolitan of Kyiv has become very much influenced by the Lithuanian-Novgorodian king; as you point out, the monarchs simply couldn't keep out of Church affairs. As of this point the tension between the Commonwealth Crown and the Ecumenical Patriarchate is minimal, but as you point out there is potential for a major clash.

EDIT: Sorry for the double post. Also, I have edited the post on the various denominations of Christianity to include more political information (if that's all you want you can, in most cases, skip to the end of each entry).

The whole point of the Metropolitinate in Yaroslavl, as discussed during the time line development, was to avoid placing both the secular and religious capital in Novgorod. The Lithuanians and Novgorodians essentially agreed that the ruling hous would be Lithuanian and the capital city Novgorodian; adding the religious centre to Novgorod would throw that carefully balanced compromise completely off. Yes, Yaroslavl is still closer to Novgorod than Lithuania culturally as well as geographically, but the point is that it is not Novgorod, not Vilnius for that matter.

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Russian, you mean. The problem is that Novgorod was very much a city-state, with all that implies, and its capital, religious and secular could not be anywhere other than in Novgorod itself. As for the Metropolitan, he is merely the head of the Russian Orthodox Church; that means he isn't really the spiritual leader in autonomous Novgorod.

Charles and Luckymoose, can I get a reply?

Gah, friends invited me to hang out at 7 PM and I didn't get back until 1:30. Working on orders now.

Orders away.

Gah you deleted my orders....i'll resend them.

das said:

Russian, you mean. The problem is that Novgorod was very much a city-state, with all that implies, and its capital, religious and secular could not be anywhere other than in Novgorod itself. As for the Metropolitan, he is merely the head of the Russian Orthodox Church; that means he isn't really the spiritual leader in autonomous Novgorod.

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Not in TTL, in TTL Novgorod became a Moscovy type state, moving beyond the concept of the city-state. They are also a partner in the Commonwealth, and as such they have had to make negotiations, such as accepting the monarchy and sacrificing being the religious centre of the country.

EDIT: Thank you all for your orders.

EDIT:
Still need orders from:
England
France
Hungary
Byzantium
Ottomans
Mupata
Chagatai
Brunei
Ming China

To Vietnam
From Ayutthaya

An alliance between our people may be in your interests.

Not in TTL, in TTL Novgorod became a Moscovy type state, moving beyond the concept of the city-state. They are also a partner in the Commonwealth, and as such they have had to make negotiations, such as accepting the monarchy and sacrificing being the religious centre of the country.

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That's not really any more plausible than Athens moving beyond the concept of the city-state by any means other than becoming an empire in its own right; can you imagine an Athenian compromise with Macedon involving moving the capital of Athens to Thebes?

Isn't Lithuania a federation of (mostly) Russian and (a few) Lithuanian principalities just like in OTL (unlike the much more centralised Muscovy), with Novgorod in an uniquely privileged position as a city (much like Polotsk in OTL), because it sure as hell wasn't a principality in most senses of the word? I don't think a central secular capital in Russia would make much sense or be much use anyway, unless it was in Kiev for symbolism or in Novgorod for purposes of coordination with the grand prince's main ally in the federation; as for a religious capital, it is another thing entirely, but again, you can't really center the diocese of Novgorod in Yaroslavl.

Sent. Sorry about that.

das said:

That's not really any more plausible than Athens moving beyond the concept of the city-state by any means other than becoming an empire in its own right; can you imagine an Athenian compromise with Macedon involving moving the capital of Athens to Thebes?

Isn't Lithuania a federation of (mostly) Russian and (a few) Lithuanian principalities just like in OTL (unlike the much more centralised Muscovy), with Novgorod in an uniquely privileged position as a city (much like Polotsk in OTL), because it sure as hell wasn't a principality in most senses of the word? I don't think a central secular capital in Russia would make much sense or be much use anyway, unless it was in Kiev for symbolism or in Novgorod for purposes of coordination with the grand prince's main ally in the federation; as for a religious capital, it is another thing entirely, but again, you can't really center the diocese of Novgorod in Yaroslavl.

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1. The secular capital is in Novgorod, the religious capital is in Yaroslavl.
2. The Commonwealth isn't a federation of many parts, only of two, Lithuania and "Novgorod," which in TTL is most of the Russian and Ingrian provinces. Much like OTL Muscovy, Russia of TTL was united by force, not diplomacy, the important difference being that Lithuania's immense military force and the genious of Vytautas were set towards the conquest of Russia, not Central European affairs. (I should add the border between Novgorod and Lithuania, don't know why I didn't).

So what level of control does the State have over the chuch?

silver 2039 said:

So what level of control does the State have over the chuch?

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Significant, but not complete. The State certainly has influence over who gets appointed as Metropolitan, and has influence over decisions, but the Ecumenical Patriarchate is ultimately the responsible authority in these matters.