SGOTM 09 - Murky Waters

The landing tile is not random, but there is a best tile, which all will want to land on (adjacent to city, best plot defense, enemies around are factors influencing). It could be a different tile, if a galley can drop one turn faster at a different tile. Though adjacent to city will always be most important.
Not random?! So if we have a city at 3e1s and on the Rice peninsula, can we control our destiny and make sure the barbs land at 3e1s? By putting 1 or 2 defenders on the forest tile or whatever?

If we only have RIce CIty, how many maces can we have in the forest and they'll still decide to land on that tile rather than the rice or other plain tile next to RIce City?
 
Extremely interesting idea.

Questions:
1. Can we ensure or be sure that they will continue to attack this city after we build more?
2. If if flips to us, can they continue to try to capture it back? If so, will they?
3. If it wants to flip to us, can we say no, to protect our other coastal cities?
1. I'm pretty sure. ;)
2. Yes and yes.
3. No (it's take it or disband). Eh, our other cities are protected if we own it. Not when the barbs own it.

BTW, just did a test. Somehow it didn't work to get a free mace, though that's what I read in the code. I could get a free longbow with archery-feudalism. And it took about 20 turns to flip :crazyeye:.
 
He he, that's fun! Build a city we don't want, and let the barbs capture it :D

Now, would the barbs send their units somewhere else, or will they reinforce that city? :confused:

It would be a quick way to upgrade our maces to level5 :D
 
Not random?! So if we have a city at 3e1s and on the Rice peninsula, can we control our destiny and make sure the barbs land at 3e1s? By putting 1 or 2 defenders on the forest tile or whatever?

If we only have RIce CIty, how many maces can we have in the forest and they'll still decide to land on that tile rather than the rice or other plain tile next to RIce City?
The weight for where to land is divided by the turns to move there. The tundra tile can be reached in one turn, while the rice needs at least 2 (navigation I on the galleys).
The other thing is defenders. Defended tiles take a penalty of a factor of 3/4/number_of_defenders. No matter how strong the units are. That will get them from a tile with good defense to one with no, even with one defender, but not from adjacent to city to not adjacent. Blocking all tiles adjacent to a city will lead to an amphibious attack, heavy defense on adjacent tiles may lead to amphibious attack on city.
Edit:
Well, that's theory. In a test the barbs didn't know that and favored rice city over tundra city as long as forest and rice were undefended.
Edit2:
Well they cannot unload the same turn they loaded so both are the same for turns. But blocking the 2 tiles by rice got the to tundra. Blocking tundra also let them do an amphibious attack on forest (not going around the rice peninsula).
 
Now, would the barbs send their units somewhere else, or will they reinforce that city? :confused:
They will not reinforce.

Another idea for such a junk city. Gift it to Joao first as long as he has few cities. He will accept it back later, when he has more cities as he has owned it once.
Or one could gift him a defender to utilize his 25% barb bonus. May let him keep it long enough to catch confucius also.
 
Cool ideas. Keep em coming! :goodjob:

Then perhaps noone will notice that the I haven't started on the PPP yet... :blush:
 
BTW, just did a test. Somehow it didn't work to get a free mace, though that's what I read in the code. I could get a free longbow with archery-feudalism.
Ok, found it.
We can build neither a unit suitable for city defense nor for attack according to what the program thinks :lol:. That's the two things it tries to give you as free units on a flip.
Maces and spears are counter units :eek:.
 
After we see the rest of Easter Island we'll know just how junky 3e1s is. To me, it's relatively useful if it can do the following:
1. Provide a southern sea passage, thus saving us 16(?) wkr-turns building two junk forts.
2. Enable us to REX the Coast, which includes further south too, right?
3. Help MW work a cottage or two or use a windmill or two when MW is doing elsewise.
4. Use eastern coastal tiles that otherwise don't get used.
5. Quick free promotions for CRII maces for Hammi.
6. At low maintenance, slowly grow and eventually provide a decent chunk of beakers.

That said, I tend to agree with klarius that we need to defog for a few turns to see if west provides something better for now. We need 3 more lib-uni cities asap, one being East Island, presumably. Rice City is a nice site, but pretty high maintenance at a cost of 3e1s and a handful of units. At the very least we need an unconnected warrior pump out west to provide some dummy tile defenders around Rice. Later they could be garrisons, but we're already at our unit limit--we'll start paying unit costs in 2t when the worker is built unless we burn the Conf Miss.

What we really need are some cities that can grow fast and raise our unit cost limit.

EDIT: There's one more use for either 3e1s or Rice City, imo, if we don't delay. Atlantis is far from useless, btw. At pop14 it is already able to poprush a lh, then the library and later a uni. If it loses 2 units per turn while building only one then it won't be long before a few maces can capture it. I wonder how many units it will leave at home to defend...3?...or fewer, since this is not a naturally spawned city... [pimp]
 
What will the barb galleys do once they have landed their units? I guess there will be some pillaging galleys which means that we can't work any sea resources anyway. This makes an expansion southward less appealing.

Unless we do the MC for the triremes. Yes, this in combination with the City 3E1S gives us a passage past the ice without needing any forts. And we use the triremes to prevent the barbs from reaching our sea resources. So what do we need?

1 settler for jesusins Joy.
2 or 4 triremes for blocking the barbs from going south.
2 (or 4?) maces for guarding the barb landing sites.
Metal Casting.

Would this sequence work:

FF: worker-settler-granary-triremes
MW: granary-maces
Research: Alpha-MC or MC-Alpha?



Or should we expand onto the eastern island first, hoping that the kind and generous Gyathaar hasn't provided us with more junk in that direction?

Edit: x-post
 
Okay, Alpha-Currency is probably a lot more useful, but I don't think we're in that much of a hurry for those triremes anyway. It's good to know that we can protect our seafood as soon as needed. So getting rid of Atlantis before lbs might be a game changer, imo, because it would allow free development of the entire eastern coast.

I checked the combat odds and I'm really liking 3e1s. If we can empty Atlantis before they get Feudalism, then we only lose 1 mace per archer. If we don't, lbms aren't too dangerous landing on tundra-bait and we can really just focus on developing some high-charged maces for Hammi.

But for me that's still just one option. We need to see what our other options are.

Gnejs, how about just focusing on your first few turns? A quick and dirty PPP designed to explore our surroundings, plus some worker turns and builds. See if you run into any problems.
 
EDIT: There's one more use for either 3e1s or Rice City, imo, if we don't delay. Atlantis is far from useless, btw. At pop14 it is already able to poprush a lh, then the library and later a uni. If it loses 2 units per turn while building only one then it won't be long before a few maces can capture it. I wonder how many units it will leave at home to defend...3?...or fewer, since this is not a naturally spawned city... [pimp]
Still, if it's only 2 units left behind, this will include the cd2, hills2 monster with nearly 15 strength, and a newly built archer (all the warriors seem to be attack or city attack). That means at least 6 maces in 3 galleys (it has to work in one turn). But as the city is size>9 I expect at least 3 units don't leave.
And we don't have navigation galleys, so the fleet will be exposed to galley attacks, so add 2 empty galleys, please. Assault_sea galleys will attack when empty.
I think we can find a cheaper way to get another uni.
 
@jesusin: the correct rule is: all food gets doubled (including overflow), up to a maximum gain of half of the food bar.

Thank you! :)

Implications:
- "Granary, the sooner the better" is still valid in general.
- But getting Granary 1 turn later loses nothing if you have 0%-50% of the bar.
- When granary and new pop come at the same time, it will be probably better to delay pop growth.

Anything else?
 
Still, if it's only 2 units left behind, this will include the cd2, hills2 monster with nearly 15 strength, and a newly built archer (all the warriors seem to be attack or city attack). That means at least 6 maces in 3 galleys (it has to work in one turn). But as the city is size>9 I expect at least 3 units don't leave.
And we don't have navigation galleys, so the fleet will be exposed to galley attacks, so add 2 empty galleys, please. Assault_sea galleys will attack when empty.
I think we can find a cheaper way to get another uni.

Have you taken into account our airship taking 16% of the strength of the monster?
 
1. Provide a southern sea passage, thus saving us 16(?) wkr-turns building two junk forts.
2. Enable us to REX the Coast, which includes further south too, right?
3. Help MW work a cottage or two or use a windmill or two when MW is doing elsewise.
4. Use eastern coastal tiles that otherwise don't get used.
5. Quick free promotions for CRII maces for Hammi.
6. At low maintenance, slowly grow and eventually provide a decent chunk of beakers.

Hey, exactly the definition of junk, horrendous city I'd never build. :D



No city on dear cows, please. No no-food city, please. Any option is better than that!
 
Thank you! :)

Implications:
- "Granary, the sooner the better" is still valid in general.
- But getting Granary 1 turn later loses nothing if you have 0%-50% of the bar.
- When granary and new pop come at the same time, it will be probably better to delay pop growth.

Anything else?
If you finish a granary with more than 50% in the box, extra food is worth exactly nothing. Work hammer tiles or specialists instead until the granary finishes. After the next growth you have the same amount of food, if you finished with 50% or 100%-1.
 
PPP T49-T54

Recon
T49 Barb city
T50 Whale 3N (eastern island)
T51 8W
T52 Rebase to furthest of Hammurabi's cities
T53 As far west as possible (unless we need to trade cheap techs first, then scout Hammurabi-land instead)
T54 Southwards
Scout takes care of tiles that aren't revealed by the airship

Civic changes
T51 Confucianism

City builds
MW Granary-Mace
FF Worker-Granary (whipped)
Marble Granary(partial)-worker (to be whipped)

City MM
MW takes a corn when granary finished

Worker actions
Two workers pasture sheep (1t), roads (1t). One worker then moves to plains hill (1t), builds windmill. Other worker moves to 1NE Marble 1 NW MurkyW, cottages, ensuring that MW gets the chop
MW worker cottages in place (3t) then cottages 1SW (3t)
New worker goes to MW 2E, windmills

Unit moves
Phalanx moves 1N then into Marble city protecting Marble city and sheep pasture
Conf miss goes to Hammy after Airship recons.

Research
Alphabet (4t), done T54

Stopping points:
Alpha completed
Threatening barb actions
Unusual discoveries
 
Do any of you know the mechanic for choking a city's water tiles with sea units? (Making the tiles unavailable to the city) I think we might be able to choke Atlantis into oblivion with just a couple of Triremes, as it is looking too expensive to capture. It's not really a threat if it can't work any tiles. :crazyeye:
 
If you finish a granary with more than 50% in the box, extra food is worth exactly nothing. Work hammer tiles or specialists instead until the granary finishes. After the next growth you have the same amount of food, if you finished with 50% or 100%-1.

Aaaaaaaaaaaah :run::aargh::hide::run:
 
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