SGOTM 09 - Murky Waters

Well one small detail in the blockade frenzy.
We need to be able to get to Atlantis :lol:. That means 50 culture in 3e1s, if I'm not mistaken (or a cow city to access Atlantis 2NW).
Also, I like still the idea to gift it temporarily. Maybe several times (also to people on other continents). Probably not wait for it to flip from the barbs, but just capture it.
All this indicates that it should be settled very soon.
 
This again argues for 3e1s, because then we can settle Rice as soon as the 2 triremes arrive from FF. Got an alternative solution, jesusin??? ;) :)

Sure.

Alt1. Use our precious settler to get the 2gold,3gems, 4corn city in the fog.
Alt2. Use our precious settler to get the 2gold,3gems, 6fish city in the E island.
Alt3. Use our precious settler to get a nice city in the S coast, as a magnet for barbs and HE enabler. With its high food and hammers got by not settling on cows, this city builds 1 or 2 Trirremes.
Alt4. Get a galleon going.
Alt5. No more settlers around here, expand to Ham land and W.
Alt6. ...


If we ever build that city 3E1S I'm all for gifting it. Then RAZING it to the ground and sowing salt on it so that nothing can grow there ever again. If we later have nuclear weapons, throw a couple there for good measure.


By the way, why would we want Currency before MC? We don't have so many cities.


Other idea: shouldn't we forget about MC and beeline for liber->paratroopers?


Last idea: are we really going to revolt to confu losing a turn? What for? Is that worth the lost turn?
 
Last edited:
If we ever build that city 3E1S I'm all for gifting it. Then RAZING it to the ground and sowing salt on it so that nothing can grow there ever again. If we later have nuclear weapons, throw a couple there for good measure.
Nice idea, but there is no city razing enabled :).
But we can let a pet OCC civilization have it forever, or let the barbs have it and disband it when it flips.

Last idea: are we really going to revolt to confu losing a turn? What for? Is that worth the lost turn?
It's about happiness, which is still missing for some time. And currently we have not enough tile improvements for our cities, so if we ever convert, we better do it now (or in a golden age, which I don't see coming up anytime soon).
 
Well one small detail in the blockade frenzy.
We need to be able to get to Atlantis :lol:. That means 50 culture in 3e1s, if I'm not mistaken (or a cow city to access Atlantis 2NW).
Also, I like still the idea to gift it temporarily. Maybe several times (also to people on other continents). Probably not wait for it to flip from the barbs, but just capture it.
All this indicates that it should be settled very soon.
Right. We need culture from Clams (Cows) City for access to Atlantis and for the safety of the ocean tile while regaining health. So you made me realize that we could actually settle 3e1s after the first trireme is complete, so it can move ahead to Cows-1E, for example, and allow us to settle Clams sooner. That just risks having the barbs send 2 galleys at once.

So the full build package would include 2 triremes and 2 settlers (e.g., 3e1s + Clams). And no big hurry for an early 3e1s (which will invite barb invaders and force us to build units, right?).

I'm fine with gifting 3e1s AFTER any triremes/galleys have made safe passage and the barb galleys are in submission. Or Clams and Rice are developed enough to build their own triemes.

NOTE: If we want to settle 2e1s asap, then we should decide that asap, because then it'd be smart to chop that tile first, right?

@jesusin: I agree that we don't settle on the Cows tile. Please note that klarius wrote "a" cow city, meaning "one of the sites" with cows in the FC. Settling on "the" Cows tile is what you and I dislike. (Sorry if that's already obvious to you--lots of Slovenes with excellent English like you still have big trouble differentiating between 'a' and 'the.' It's probably the very hardest grammar point for them, but that's partly because Slovenian doesn't have articles like a and the.)
 
By the way, why would we want Currency before MC? We don't have so many cities.
I would prefer to avoid any turns at 0% research and the next one is coming up in 4-5turns. To me, the biggest benefit of Alpha right now is combined with Currency for 100% research (if anyone has gold to trade of course). I'm counting on us meeting lots of AIs with our airship, but even Joao and Hammi might be enough to maintain 100% for a while.

But you may be right that MC first is better, since it will open up our eastern coast. To me it depends on what we see in the next two turns. We will start paying 1gpt for each new unit we build, starting with the worker in 2t (minus the scout and miss, if we burn them). If we decide to REX two more settlers pronto, along with a galley to transport one of them, our maintenance starts to become significant.

Then there's also the question of when we would actually be ready to crank out 2 triremes and 2 settlers for 3e1s + Clams. We don't really need MC before we're ready to build the triremes, right?

How about a (serious) counter-question for you ;): Why Alpha before MC? We only need Sailing and might not get it in trade. Should we bee-line Sailing-MC and REX the eastern coast asap? All these unanswered question are why I'd like Gnejs to explore two more turns and then pause.
 
I'm fine with gifting 3e1s AFTER any triremes/galleys have made safe passage and the barb galleys are in submission. Or Clams and Rice are developed enough to build their own triemes.
The idea would be to first use it for other birds to kill. Like:

  • Settle (connected by road).
  • Hope for confucian spread.
  • When barbs appear either defend it or gift it away, according to troops available.
  • If gifted enjoy one turn of foreign trade route :). If confucian spread somebody converts.
  • If enough units capture, else build units or it may flip.
  • Repeat.
  • Once boats are ready keep, it's not necessary to have already access to Atlantis.
Important point to have it gifted at least once, so we can get rid of it easily later whenever we want.
 
Okay, that relieves any concerns in terms of defending the city early. My other thinking right now is that there's no hurry to spend a relatively expensive settler on that city yet, if we have better places to send it.

Personally, I don't see why we'd need or want to get rid of the city, later on. It'll pay for itself and then some. Who knows, maybe we'll use it to create a certain GP at the end of the game or whatever. But if we're going to gift it at all, might as well be before it even has 1 bushel of food stored up, because there's no point in wasting any food or hammers, recapturing it from the barbs.

EDIT: There's another point that I've thought but not mentioned explicitly. My thinking is to catch the barbs with their pants down, that is, with their galley(s) 5-10 turns away. If we create 3e1s early, those barb galleys will be camped in nearby waters. Bigger problem, isn't it?
 
Last edited:
The idea would be to first use it for other birds to kill. Like:

  • Settle (connected by road).
  • Hope for confucian spread.
  • When barbs appear either defend it or gift it away, according to troops available.
  • If gifted enjoy one turn of foreign trade route :). If confucian spread somebody converts.
  • If enough units capture, else build units or it may flip.
  • Repeat.
  • Once boats are ready keep, it's not necessary to have already access to Atlantis.
Important point to have it gifted at least once, so we can get rid of it easily later whenever we want.

Even better would be to use our missionary to ensure Confu spread... :)
Btw, are we sure an AI would accept such a city?
 
Turnset report T49-T57

T49:
Scout Atlantis. Stop for discussion
(continued)
Move scout and end up between barb axe and barb warrior. :suicide: Captain Erkon fetches a plank.

IBT:
Scout killed.
Moving Galley flashes by somewhere, probably on the coast beyond Atlantis.
Meet Shaka (+1 favourite civic)

T50:
Recon eastern island. Sheep, Whales, Fur, further away som Fish. Looking useful. More land spotted that may be reachable with culture bridges.
Stopping for discussion.

Save attached. View attachment Pericles BC-1000.CivBeyondSwordSave

Continuing...

IBT:
Gibbons list of greatest civilizations:
1. Unknown
2. Unknown
3. Pericles
4. Hammurabi
5. Joao II
6. Shaka
7. Unknown

T51:
Recon 8W, revealing two of Hammurabis cities. Abysmal land over there, LC will wail when he sees this screenshot: Civ4ScreenShot0007.JPG
Realize that I can MM for Alphabet in 1t by working new cottage instead of forest. Postponing revolt to Confu for one turn.
Another deviation from plan is to put one turn of production at FF into a Settler.

IBT:
Judaism FIDL
Pyramids built in Ulundi! Also has Great Wall. :eek:

T52:
Alphabet researched. Shaka has Sailing but doesn't want to trade, neither of Joao and Hammurabi have Sailing. They are both willing to trade Archery and Iron Working.
The save:
View attachment Pericles BC-0920.CivBeyondSwordSave

Stopping for discussion... continuing

Trade Med+Fish+Wri for IW with Hammurabi. Closest Iron is 2SW1S Marble, next one is farther south past potential site C3. None to the west or east.
Trade Wri for Archery with Joao.
Gift Writing+Myst to Shaka for +3 friendly trade (total +4).
Rebase Airship to Ulundi. Two Ivory+Cow+FPs in visible tiles.
Revolt to Confucianism

IBT:
-

T53:
Shaka immediately drops to +3.
Recon NE from Ulundi, spot some gold and gems, and Huyana Capac. Haven't officially met him yet, though. :)
Pausing again as there is nothing planned for next. The save: View attachment Pericles BC-0880.CivBeyondSwordSave

Continuing

MM as per new PPP.

IBT:
Meet Huyana Capac, founder of Buddhism, Annoyed -3, 2 cities, wont trade Sailing, Masonry, Polytheism. Hasn't met Shaka yet, so there goes our hope of trading for Sailing... :(

T54:
According to PPP. Research to 100% on Currency. Shifting to Sailing next turn unless we can trade for it then.
Recon SW from Ulundi, find coast and ocean.
Hammurabi has an unimproved Iron.

IBT:
-

T55:
Rebase Airship to FF.
Scout Hammurabis capital. 1 lake, 3 resources (sheep, cow, and Iron) and 16 forests. I think we have found or National Park city. :D This is a guy that we don't want to give Mathematics...

IBT:
-

T56:
Sailing learned. Research Currency (3t)
Settler poprushed in FF
Trade route to Joao. Trade Corn for Wheat.
Recon Easter Island. Two more Furs up north. Looks to me like one great city is preferrable to two poor ones, but this can be discussed later.

IBT:
-

T57:
Galley completed in FF.
Mace completed in MW.
Turnset finished, uploading... save uploaded.

Turnset log:
Spoiler :
Turn 49, 1060 BC: The borders of Marble have expanded!
Turn 49, 1060 BC: Barbarian's Warrior (2.00) vs Pericles'sScout (0.42)
Turn 49, 1060 BC: Combat Odds: 100.0%
Turn 49, 1060 BC: (Plot Defense: +50%)
Turn 49, 1060 BC: Pericles's Scout is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 49, 1060 BC: Barbarian's Warrior has defeated Pericles's Scout!

Turn 50, 1000 BC: You have trained a Worker in Frozen Fish. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 51, 960 BC: You have discovered Alphabet!
Turn 51, 960 BC: The Pyramids has been built in a far away land!
Turn 51, 960 BC: Judaism has been founded in a distant land!

Turn 52, 920 BC: You have discovered Iron Working!
Turn 52, 920 BC: You have discovered Archery!
Turn 52, 920 BC: The revolution has begun!!!
Turn 52, 920 BC: Pericles converts to Confucianism!
Turn 52, 920 BC: The anarchy is over! Your government is re-established.

Turn 55, 800 BC: You have discovered Sailing!
Turn 55, 800 BC: You have trained a Settler in Frozen Fish. Work has now begun on a Settler.
Turn 55, 800 BC: Marble will grow to size 3 on the next turn

Turn 56, 760 BC: Clearing a Forest has created 20 ? for Murky Waters.
Turn 56, 760 BC: You have trained a Maceman in Murky Waters. Work has now begun on a Settler.
Turn 56, 760 BC: You have trained a Galley in Frozen Fish. Work has now begun on a Settler.
Turn 56, 760 BC: Marble has grown to size 3
 
Last edited:
Even better would be to use our missionary to ensure Confu spread... :)
Btw, are we sure an AI would accept such a city?
It's still the same as in earlier versions. Less than 4 cities and they accept every city. That's why gifting early.
With more than 3 cities they accept cities within 9 tiles of their empire or cities they ever owned before.
 
Was that incredible luck that we met Shaka? Our airship revealing the tiles just as Shaka passed? :lol:

OB - yes. Play on - yes.
 
Should also mean that Shaka has Sailing, I suppose, but does he know anyone else who does? OBs with Shaka will also give us a step in teh direction of circumnavigating, giving us more maneuverability with the barb galleys.
Was that incredible luck that we met Shaka? Our airship revealing the tiles just as Shaka passed? :lol:
Good joke.

Don't worry about it, Gnejs. We all recognize talent, skill, and jenius when we see it. ;)
 
Last edited:
I've added a bunch of screenshots in post #3 that can be used during our discussion.

ZPV has started to update the turn report summary :goodjob:. Take a look if you have missed it.
 
Alphabet reached 1t early. Stopping for a while.

I propose to trade Fishing+Med+Writing for IW with Hammurabi to increase that chances of trading for Sailing. Meanwhile continue to research Metal Casting. Or should we just self-research sailing first and send a settler to E island pronto?
 
Well, can you get Shaka to pleased (+5) at all. Trade IW is OK, but do we need MC at all that fast :crazyeye:.

Edit: In fact I think just set research to zero for 1-2 turns, until we know more.
 
Well, can you get Shaka to pleased (+5) at all. Trade IW is OK, but do we need MC at all that fast :crazyeye:.

Edit: In fact I think just set research to zero for 1-2 turns, until we know more.

We are in his favourite civic and have open borders. Then we can start by gifting him Jesusins Joy and making sending our Conf missionary back there to give shared religion points. How long would it take to get him to +5 then?
 
Top Bottom