ALC 27: Churchill of England

I'm no Deity, so grain of salt, yadda yadda yadda.

You're safe from GW at Pleased, so I would immediately take your existing axemen and move them towards Aryan, give you a better chance of poaching.

Ouch on losing the forests temporarily at Hastings. Water under the bridge now, but would it have been possible to get a worker to chop one of the forests for monument earlier?

I would change research this turn to Calendar. GW is going to be your best trade since you can throw him Polytheism too, but I don't think those two will be quite enough to balance the human-AI discrepancy in tech costs for trades.

If you do go for war with Washington, I would think more about the capital as first target than San Francisco, since you can start your attack so close.
 
Seems that growing from size3 to 4 before settler didn't do much good (1 :commerce: though! ;) should have settled in place... not :lol: ) I think I saw you still didn't have the Marble (?), so SoZ would be the only res-boost wonder you have available; could be worth it to 99% that. Finishing it in York could maybe be an option, if 1) its prod didn't suck and 2) you weren't going to off GW first anyway :)

Bonking some heads with jumbos and cats seems like the logical option if you get there fast enough. Too bad he has multiple Ivory himself.
 
@build orders: We sadly know there's a barb galley (poor workboat) so a few galleys might help, but this can probably be delayed a while.

Do you plan on getting more workers before the war? Imho, 1 or 2 more could help you - it's a 4-turn build in London.

Do you plan to whip the library into a granary at Canterbury?

Skip Calendar from now, you only have bananas to improve. Maybe you can extort it from Washington if he ever gets it. Head to Construction as you suggested. Maybe you can get a trade for HBR to get the phants online earlier.
How do you plan on getting Currency? Trade or tech it yourself (after HBR/Construction/Litterature)?

And I'd probably take Aryan before warring with Washington. It's a great city spot with plenty of food, will deny extra land to deity AIs (and it's easier to take it from barbs), provide you with one extra city and give you some veteran axes.

Take peace while you can, even though Shaka is far (we don't know where he is but he's the kind of crazy warmonger that'll send stacks around the globe) Zara is fairly close.

Otherwise looking great, great thinking on the Aesthetics trade, I have to incorporate this into my games!
 
Obviously, a war with Washington is inevitable sooner or later, but the question is when?


It's been a long time since I looked at the rules, but is commerce and/or resource trading enabled by coastline with Sailing? The reason it would matter is that a war with Washington will cut off your land and river-based trade routes, as well as access to resource trades with other AIs on the opposite side of Washington's land.

On the other hand, Construction and Horseback Riding may alone be sufficient in achieving a comfortable size of total land. It may be best here to choose the lesser of two evils: 1) Temporarily suppressed commerce and resource trades, or 2) Limited land area.

By the looks of the situation, I'd say the land is more important in the medium term.
 
Charismatic elephants seem like a good idea, although it looks like you lack production to take out GW in one quick war right now. Try for Aryan, then a blitz war agains his capital, SF, and NYC, that will take the sting out of him for sure, and it's probably possible to get a cease fire and a 10 turn respite before finishing him off after that from there.
 
Seems that growing from size3 to 4 before settler didn't do much good (1 :commerce: though! ;) should have settled in place... not :lol: ) I think I saw you still didn't have the Marble (?), so SoZ would be the only res-boost wonder you have available; could be worth it to 99% that. Finishing it in York could maybe be an option, if 1) its prod didn't suck and 2) you weren't going to off GW first anyway :)

Bonking some heads with jumbos and cats seems like the logical option if you get there fast enough. Too bad he has multiple Ivory himself.

The Statue of Zeus and the Shwedagon Paya (gold). If I plan for a war vs. Washington, I won't build these even for denial purposes, as gold from capturing cities will be more than enough.


@build orders: We sadly know there's a barb galley (poor workboat) so a few galleys might help, but this can probably be delayed a while.

Do you plan on getting more workers before the war? Imho, 1 or 2 more could help you - it's a 4-turn build in London.

Do you plan to whip the library into a granary at Canterbury?

Skip Calendar from now, you only have bananas to improve. Maybe you can extort it from Washington if he ever gets it. Head to Construction as you suggested. Maybe you can get a trade for HBR to get the phants online earlier.
How do you plan on getting Currency? Trade or tech it yourself (after HBR/Construction/Litterature)?

And I'd probably take Aryan before warring with Washington. It's a great city spot with plenty of food, will deny extra land to deity AIs (and it's easier to take it from barbs), provide you with one extra city and give you some veteran axes.

Take peace while you can, even though Shaka is far (we don't know where he is but he's the kind of crazy warmonger that'll send stacks around the globe) Zara is fairly close.

Otherwise looking great, great thinking on the Aesthetics trade, I have to incorporate this into my games!

The galleys can definitely be delayed. I can whip them easily in my capital if I see one nearby. Any barb galley will come from the south due to the way the barbarian galleys are coded.

I'll take Aryan but only when I have sufficient catapults, as it's got FIVE archers.

I'll let the war drag on for about 5 more turns so that the AI's get distracted and then sign peace.

Obviously, a war with Washington is inevitable sooner or later, but the question is when?


It's been a long time since I looked at the rules, but is commerce and/or resource trading enabled by coastline with Sailing? The reason it would matter is that a war with Washington will cut off your land and river-based trade routes, as well as access to resource trades with other AIs on the opposite side of Washington's land.

On the other hand, Construction and Horseback Riding may alone be sufficient in achieving a comfortable size of total land. It may be best here to choose the lesser of two evils: 1) Temporarily suppressed commerce and resource trades, or 2) Limited land area.

By the looks of the situation, I'd say the land is more important in the medium term.


Commerce and resource trading is enabled by coastline with sailing provided nothing is between us and that I have visibility into all the coastal tiles that are part of our trade network. Hopefully I can open borders with Zara for commerce. If not ... well, there's a Roman city right next to Washington so that's nice. :goodjob:

I agree with your assertion that land is more important right now.

Charismatic elephants seem like a good idea, although it looks like you lack production to take out GW in one quick war right now. Try for Aryan, then a blitz war agains his capital, SF, and NYC, that will take the sting out of him for sure, and it's probably possible to get a cease fire and a 10 turn respite before finishing him off after that from there.

I probably lack the production to eliminate him, but I'd rather keep him alive while just taking Washington, San Francisco, and maybe New York. He's the worst enemy of several AI's so by keeping him alive, he'll distract other leaders.

Looking at this game I can see my game has clearly improved over last year ... looking at my immortal/darius game I posted, I'm wondering how I managed to have a size 8 capital at 835 AD when I hav a size 9 capital now in 750 BC.
 
Zara looks like he's going to become quite large this game with access to those islands. I think you need a long-term plan to take him down a few notches.
 
Nice write up.

Given the heavy forest/jungle map, I would have choked/attacked GW much earlier. All we need here is 2 prod cities. Capital + Copper/Cow/Corn (settler 1N of the 2nd copper). hook up copper in Capital ASAP, send in the Woodsman Axe to choke GW, steal workers and etc. Killing 1 barb worrior will get your Axe to WoodsII. A rush on Deity really needs to happen very early.

Your support cities lack either food or production, a near future war looks unrealistic. Also i am afraid by the time you get construction, GW will have Longbows/Phants himself, a war will be very tough then. A costly war will leave you further behind the leading AIs.

I agree with some other poster here to grab all the nearby barb cities first to get 6 cities, possibly go peaceful until Rifling given your decent research rate.
 
Finally, you have the option of building a barracks after the settler (assuming you work the warrior for one turn so no hammer decay occurs).
Hammer decay occurs after 10 turns of not working on a unit, whether those turns are sequential or not. So you couldn't build a Barracks after the Settler without the Warrior hammers decaying.

And so, I decided to end this lengthy but exciting round. Zara and Shaka have both had enough of the "war" and are each willing to sign peace for Aesthetics.
I wouldn't bother. If neither Zara nor Shaka are sending anything at you at the moment, it's probably better not to give up the tech for peace. I'd only sign peace when/if you see a large stack heading your way. For now, just let it be... this will also hopefully lower the price for when you do eventually make peace.

For research, I'm thinking of Construction -> HBR (better if I can get it in a trade) -> Literature (for the Great Library with Washington's marble). York should get the next Great Scientist, in 45 turns though. :(
If you want to ensure you get the Great Library, I'd recommend going for Literature first. If you wait for Construction and HBR, you could well lose the Great Library.

All in all I think you should decide on a path and stick to it. Do you want to go to war? Then research Construction/HBR and don't waste any time building wonders. Do you want to improve the economy first before a war? Then go straight for Literature/maybe Currency and don't waste any time building troops first. Personally I'm not sure which option is preferable, although I'm leaning towards making a shot at the Great Library if you can.
 
I don't know the marble situation, will we get it peacefully? If so there's nothing wrong with going peaceful . I'd take the nearby barb city and settle some of those islands in that case. Try to build Parthenon somewhere near San Fransisco get some tiles back.

Ftm Washington doesn't have med/poly so he's some way from longbows. Your research is ok so no problem to reach construction/HBR in time, production is another matter though. There's not much natural production but there's food surplus in most cities. So units can be whipped. I think you'll have enough production this way to build a sizable army but your economy will suffer. This is not a problem if you can win the war against GW convincingly since you can just lean back and catch up with some 12 cities but if that war stagnates you'll probably be left with some culturally pressed cities and no real gain whatsoever.

Agree with Lord Parkin, if you go to war it'll have to be an all out effort with all cities building/whipping units. Building wonders and taking out a deity ai is just not on. I think you'll need an initial stack of at least 15 units preferably more to begin with and you'll have to reinforce during the war. If you feel such a stack can't be built before GW getting longbows i'd go peaceful. Warring with cats is the exception, not the rule on deity. It's an exciting idea but in the end i think i agree with ABCF that a standard renaissance war set up will be safer even without marble (think we'll get it peacefully though).
 
I would try to go peacefully too, grabbing the sea foods in the west before Zara. Researching HR instead of Aesthetics would have been more in the path of a rush (you can trade for alpha with it). As the previous posters said, I would try the Parthenon/GL, to leverage your marble city and your tech path.

Also, it seems to me that finishing a granary the turn before the growth is not the best deal you can made... to say the least :D Best moment for that is half way through the food bar, as that's when the granary starts to accumulate food :)

Good luck on this, it's a nice read!

Cheers,
Raskolnikov
 
Also, it seems to me that finishing a granary the turn before the growth is not the best deal you can made... to say the least :D Best moment for that is half way through the food bar, as that's when the granary starts to accumulate food :)
Actually, I believe neither you nor DMOC are right on this. Granaries start accumulating food from the moment they're built. So if you build a Granary half-way through growth when you need another 12 food to grow, then there'll be 6 food stored upon growth. If you build a Granary just before growth (when you have say 4 food to grow), then there'll be 2 food stored after the first growth. If you build the Granary just after growth (when you have say 24 food to grow), it'll store 12 food upon growth.

So basically, there is no "optimum" time to build a Granary (unlike in Civ3). It no longer makes a difference at what stage during growth you build the Granary... that bit of micromanagement has become redundant in Civ4. ;)
 
Yes there is... If you manage your chops or arrange your tiles so the granary completes one turn before growth (I exagerate, but anytime after half the food bar is filled), you are effectively loosing food. The way you describe the granary is the way I understand it (but you write far better than me :)), but for me there is a difference starting the growing phase with 2 foods or 12 in the bar. :)

edit: I reread your post more carefully... if you need 12 more food to grow on a food bar of 24, and you complete the granary, it will store all the 12 foods remaining, not 6. Before the half of the bar, you will have a full granary after growth, after you will miss the food accumulated between the half bar and the point where you complete the granary. That's where the difference comes for. So the first half is acceptable, the half is the best (from a food point of view), after that is sub optimal.
 
edit: I reread your post more carefully... if you need 12 more food to grow on a food bar of 24, and you complete the granary, it will store all the 12 foods remaining, not 6. Before the half of the bar, you will have a full granary after growth, after you will miss the food accumulated between the half bar and the point where you complete the granary. That's where the difference comes for. So the first half is acceptable, the half is the best (from a food point of view), after that is sub optimal.
Hmm, are you sure about this? I guess I'll have to test it. I always thought they intentionally fixed the Granary so you don't need to micromanage when you build it any more...
 
Some testing:

Growing without granary from size 1 to size 2 on a 3 food tile (3*8= 22+ 2 food overflow):


Same with a granary from the beginning, now the final food is 24+11 =22+13 overflow


Same with a granary included at 11 food (worked 3 turn a 3 food tile, then one turn a 2f1h tile, then 4 turn a 3 food tile), result is the same (at least the 11 food stored in the granary): 23 +11 =22+12 overflow:


Finally with a granary included two turn before growth, final food is 8*3 + 2*3 (from the granary) =22+ 8 overflow only:


So i guess you want to finish that granary before half the food is filled ;)

Cheers,
Ras

@DMOC: sorry being OT, but I think it's informative :p
 
Okay, thanks for correcting me there. That's certainly useful information (although definitely not game-breaking), and I'll keep it in mind in future. :)
 
So what are you doing that let's you run 100% science with 27 gold overflow? You don't have currency so you can't be building wealth or trading gold with the AI.
 
^There's a minus before 27 :lol:
Informative discussion about the Granary Ras and LP, was always too lazy to look it up/test it myself.
 
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