SGOTM 11 - Plastic Ducks
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
Ah yeah, that's right.
So basically we're now moving into the 9xxBC for sure? I've kind of started to lose track of all attempts right now... but ~900BC isn't 100% sure for GLH I guess... still untill proven othervise, it's definately worth trying for.
So basically we're now moving into the 9xxBC for sure? I've kind of started to lose track of all attempts right now... but ~900BC isn't 100% sure for GLH I guess... still untill proven othervise, it's definately worth trying for.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
I think the idea behind the early Mono is not to build the wonders earlier, but to invest less hammers in them. This helps with rexing... probably at the cost of teching, though.
Maybe early Maths would have the same effect ? Maths being on our tech path it looks like we will get to it early...
On OR upkeep cost : we can switch in and out pretty easily. I'm not sure it should be a concern. What is more of a concern (to me) is that it is a detour on our tech path.
Zara's favourite civic is Theocracy... Is it a safe bet he'll tech Monotheism pretty early ? I think it is. I've seen him founding Judaism plenty of times.
However, I don't know what his behaviour is when someone else founds Judaism.
@Incoming turnset :
Don't we need a warrior in Delhi for garrison purposes, after the 2 workers are done ?
We will want to grow the city to work the mines. After having whipped, we're down to a happy cap @3 without garrison.
Also, I'm wary that farming the land delays the mining. Ideally, we'd want to synchro the mines with Delhi's growth. Sharing the corn so soon may also be prematurate.
I think it is best to share the corn when Delhi is at least size 4 and, more important, working all 3 mines (which implies we'd have to mine first !).
Oh ! I'm sure you know it but when we whip the settler, we need to manually reassign Delhi's citizens to work the silver.
Micro question :
If we road first,
Whipping the settler on turn 48 allows to settle Bombay on turn 50, at the same time we finish roading. There are no traderoutes, yet, so isn't that the best time to set the slider @0% ?
Also, since we go from Settler to Worker to Worker, the later we whip, the faster we finish our workers (gain 3H/turn)... or am I missing something ? You all seem to prefer whipping on turn 46-47...
Maybe early Maths would have the same effect ? Maths being on our tech path it looks like we will get to it early...
On OR upkeep cost : we can switch in and out pretty easily. I'm not sure it should be a concern. What is more of a concern (to me) is that it is a detour on our tech path.
Zara's favourite civic is Theocracy... Is it a safe bet he'll tech Monotheism pretty early ? I think it is. I've seen him founding Judaism plenty of times.
However, I don't know what his behaviour is when someone else founds Judaism.
@Incoming turnset :
Don't we need a warrior in Delhi for garrison purposes, after the 2 workers are done ?
We will want to grow the city to work the mines. After having whipped, we're down to a happy cap @3 without garrison.
Also, I'm wary that farming the land delays the mining. Ideally, we'd want to synchro the mines with Delhi's growth. Sharing the corn so soon may also be prematurate.
I think it is best to share the corn when Delhi is at least size 4 and, more important, working all 3 mines (which implies we'd have to mine first !).
Oh ! I'm sure you know it but when we whip the settler, we need to manually reassign Delhi's citizens to work the silver.
Micro question :
If we road first,
Whipping the settler on turn 48 allows to settle Bombay on turn 50, at the same time we finish roading. There are no traderoutes, yet, so isn't that the best time to set the slider @0% ?
Also, since we go from Settler to Worker to Worker, the later we whip, the faster we finish our workers (gain 3H/turn)... or am I missing something ? You all seem to prefer whipping on turn 46-47...
We have silver, so happy cap is 4 with whip anger.
Trade routes are weird. Sometimes you get them right away, sometimes it takes 1 more turn. I think you get the trade route the turn you settle if the network is already complete, otherwise it takes one more turn.
Whipping as early as possible (t46) takes 2
away from worker and adds 3 to the settler in Bombay compared to whipping on t48. The 4th citizen is only contributing 1/turn since it eats 2 
.
So:
if we whip on t46, slider at 0% the turn Bombay is settled (t49)
if we whip on t48, slider at 0% the turn before Bombay is settled (t49, either way it's t49)
The added bonus of whipping on t48 is 2 extra beakers from the earlier trade route.
So in effect it really is:
2
vs 1
If whipping on t46 means 1 turn earlier settler, I think it's worth it... going to test.
Result: Settler is done on t74 both times unless we switch 2F1C to 2F1H for 1 turn before the copper mine is done, in which case whipping on t46 yields t73 settler, but at the cost of another beaker.
Trade routes are weird. Sometimes you get them right away, sometimes it takes 1 more turn. I think you get the trade route the turn you settle if the network is already complete, otherwise it takes one more turn.
Whipping as early as possible (t46) takes 2
away from worker and adds 3 to the settler in Bombay compared to whipping on t48. The 4th citizen is only contributing 1/turn since it eats 2 .So:
if we whip on t46, slider at 0% the turn Bombay is settled (t49)
if we whip on t48, slider at 0% the turn before Bombay is settled (t49, either way it's t49)
The added bonus of whipping on t48 is 2 extra beakers from the earlier trade route.
So in effect it really is:
2
vs 1 If whipping on t46 means 1 turn earlier settler, I think it's worth it... going to test.
Result: Settler is done on t74 both times unless we switch 2F1C to 2F1H for 1 turn before the copper mine is done, in which case whipping on t46 yields t73 settler, but at the cost of another beaker.
dingding
Prince
Actually I've given my suggestion of chopping first on #174. Copy & Paste here:
RED: Updated
To summarize the result of two different methods for you to compare:
Bpt will be the same for two (in my approach, -1gpt maintenance for 2pop in Bombay but +1gpt for the pop working on 3F1C; that being said it's +1gpt compared to the other methods when Delhi has 5 pop). The differences are basically on hammers on SH and workers' movement.
Now I'm for AH => Writing instead of Writing=>AH for 3 reasons:
1. save us 1 tree for not rushing the Oracle;
2. when the Oracle is finished, we can hire 4 scientists instead of 3, accelerating the 1st GP by 1 turn.
3. reveal the horse for us to locate the best 3rd city for the GLH.
Personally I bet there is a horse by the coast, and it'll change everything about the GLH.
If my plan is OK, I'll release the save tomorrow.
BornInCantaloup
Agent of Chaos
Indeed, I redid the test a few times, roading first and always had the TR online by turn 50... Not sure why I missed them the first time I tried... I'm starting to doubt the accuracy of my last post...
You're also perfectly right about the happy cap & the 4th citizen's contribution. My bad.
I still assume what comes after the 2 workers is a warrior. Or are we going to put hammers in the SH ?
@BIC
Definitely another warrior. In my tests there's usually one pesky barbarian that spawns somewhere and we'll need the military police anyway. We might even need an Axe at one point, I've seen a few barb Axes in my games too. Any spare hammers in SH otherwise.
@dingding
Plan looks good. I'll give it a try before giving my agreement. I haven't tried growing Bombay in a while instead been using it for 3rd settler immediately... let's see how it turns out.
Definitely another warrior. In my tests there's usually one pesky barbarian that spawns somewhere and we'll need the military police anyway. We might even need an Axe at one point, I've seen a few barb Axes in my games too. Any spare hammers in SH otherwise.
@dingding
Plan looks good. I'll give it a try before giving my agreement. I haven't tried growing Bombay in a while instead been using it for 3rd settler immediately... let's see how it turns out.
Yeah.. and this really makes no sense. In testing this (as mentioned before) if you complete the road, then settle, you have insta-traderoute. If you settle then finish road, then nothing untill next turn.
@dingding:
Ah.. sorry.. failed to catch your comparison in the other post. Will give it one try tomorrow morning (if you haven't gotten the ok from others by then).
Valid reasons for AH, I suppose. You also "gain back" 1 forest from your early chop by saving it on oracle.
With Bombay at size 2, it could put a few hammers into an axe and whip it later if we need some extra defences (which in testing sometimes we do). 1 extra warrior shouldn't be a problem to get out of Delhi if we want it. I'm still not opposed to fogbusting more to our west (needs one extra warrior over there to leave only 1 tile for spawning), but it's not important to me
dingding
Prince
@ kossin:
The 3rd settler before 76t will delay Writing + Oracle by 1 turn.
I think the rhythm of Duck's earlier proposal is good: 3rd settler at around t77.
If we have some more hammers in Bombay, I prefer putting them on SH and accumulate some food at first.
@ BIC:
The unit after 2 workers is warrior. I suppose we need 5+ warriors for fogbusting as I see there are all kinds of bloody barbarians (Axeman, Spearman...) appear on Emp.
@ Duckweed:
The idea of Mono is not to accelerate the wonders, but to build them with less effort. Moreover it's relevant to gift a missionary to Zara in order to make him Friendly ASAP.
About Currency, it's always interesting to settle some island cities from the 7th one with or without Currency. As I see it now, researching Currency will certainly delay CS but it may be the same till Literature.
I'd like to continue the discussion on these points later after my turn.
@ All:
Plan updated @ #185 with two modifications on worker movement, copied here
The 3rd settler before 76t will delay Writing + Oracle by 1 turn.
I think the rhythm of Duck's earlier proposal is good: 3rd settler at around t77.
If we have some more hammers in Bombay, I prefer putting them on SH and accumulate some food at first.
@ BIC:
The unit after 2 workers is warrior. I suppose we need 5+ warriors for fogbusting as I see there are all kinds of bloody barbarians (Axeman, Spearman...) appear on Emp.
@ Duckweed:
The idea of Mono is not to accelerate the wonders, but to build them with less effort. Moreover it's relevant to gift a missionary to Zara in order to make him Friendly ASAP.
About Currency, it's always interesting to settle some island cities from the 7th one with or without Currency. As I see it now, researching Currency will certainly delay CS but it may be the same till Literature.
I'd like to continue the discussion on these points later after my turn.
@ All:
Plan updated @ #185 with two modifications on worker movement, copied here
Spoiler :
I like the gambit, Bombay @ 2pop is a lot more useful than stuck at 1 pop forever. I don't have a problem with the new micro although the last one looked fine too when I tried it, didn't have to chop anything else to get Oracle at the same time as Writing and having 4 scientists off the bat is a nice plus (and increases odds of GS first -> settle is fine as Duckweed said).
EDIT: is it me or has one team lost already or been disqualified/something?
EDIT: is it me or has one team lost already or been disqualified/something?
I tried another play.
T45 worker1 road
T47 whipped settler
T48 Delhi started 2 workers
T50 worker finish road 1st (this is important to get trade route immediately). Bombay found and start settler at 2F1C tile
T51 worker1 started mining. Worker 2 will join in 2 turns later
T54 copper mined, put citizen to work on the mined copper
T55 2 worker went to 2 riverside hills receptively
T56 2 workers started chop
T60 100 beakers to PH. 54H to settler. Worker 3 out and 6H overflow to warrior
The difference from previous plan is that
1. save the plain forest for mids
2. Delhi no need to produce other thing for 1 turn before Oracle is available
2. 4th citizen can work on mined hill immediately
Edit: I'll check how's Bombay grow 1st look like.
T45 worker1 road
T47 whipped settler
T48 Delhi started 2 workers
T50 worker finish road 1st (this is important to get trade route immediately). Bombay found and start settler at 2F1C tile
T51 worker1 started mining. Worker 2 will join in 2 turns later
T54 copper mined, put citizen to work on the mined copper
T55 2 worker went to 2 riverside hills receptively
T56 2 workers started chop
T60 100 beakers to PH. 54H to settler. Worker 3 out and 6H overflow to warrior
The difference from previous plan is that
1. save the plain forest for mids
2. Delhi no need to produce other thing for 1 turn before Oracle is available
2. 4th citizen can work on mined hill immediately
Edit: I'll check how's Bombay grow 1st look like.
I know how mono works. The problem is the hammers gained do not match the loss from
1. delay of other techs
2. the loss of cash from OR
3. the beaker investment, which could be saved from trade
Believe me, Cur->CS beats CS directly almost at any circumstance. It's an easy test yourself as I mentioned before.
Udey1
Prince
checking in, I have a calc test tomorrow, gotta design a circuit ALU/PC tomorrow, and got 3 finals in the next ten days, then I'll be able to dive in here. Sorry again for being absent so far.
Duckweed's and dingding's plans end up pretty similar, but...
dingding: At pop2 in Bombay doesn't maintenance drop your research below what duckweed proposes?
Duckweed is slightly ahead on workerturns in Delhi at the expense of a farm in Bombay and 3 food there, but will produce a settler one turn quicker, so the food catches up when settlers are built. Isn't having less maintenance slightly better while teching up to writing?
Duckweeds point of not improving tiles around bombay untill horses are known is a valid one. Not that likely you'll have horses on your farm dingding, but you never know.
dingding: At pop2 in Bombay doesn't maintenance drop your research below what duckweed proposes?
Duckweed is slightly ahead on workerturns in Delhi at the expense of a farm in Bombay and 3 food there, but will produce a settler one turn quicker, so the food catches up when settlers are built. Isn't having less maintenance slightly better while teching up to writing?
Duckweeds point of not improving tiles around bombay untill horses are known is a valid one. Not that likely you'll have horses on your farm dingding, but you never know.
Hmm, that's a good point about horses. There's a rather large area devoid of resources so odds Horsies/Iron are there aren't that bad actually.
Alright, count my vote as per Duckweed's latest plan, which pretty much seems to merge together as best as possible all the strategies we've discussed.
Alright, count my vote as per Duckweed's latest plan, which pretty much seems to merge together as best as possible all the strategies we've discussed.
dingding
Prince
Duck's latest proposal sounds a good balance. Let's not dwell on these 15 turns any more. I agree on this plan with some modifications (see red).
Attention: This is the last proposal I'll give. Please say Yes or No with your proposal.
Since Bombay takes the Corn for 5 turns, Delhi has less food than the previous methods. My modification with Worker 1 farming first allows the 4th pop of Delhi to work on the 3F1C tile as soon as it's out. With the food accumulation, Delhi will have 7 pop by the turn after the Oracle. That's just-in-time as we'll wait for the missionary to come to Delhi and gives the happiness.
I think about the micro of the next 20 turns as well.
1) I also found the first GP can be rushed in 5 turns (GS 82%) at the cost of 1 less turn of working on the Silver. That seems to be worth the cost.
2) As Delhi reach 5pop and cause -1gpt due to maintenance, which is the same with 2 pop in Bombay, we can synchronize the growth of Delhi and Bombay (pop=>2) and gain 1C from the additional pop of Bombay working on 2F1C tile.
BTW, the additional pop in Bombay is too good to be converted into cash by being overflow to the mids.
About the horse location:
I've farmed the 2F1C tile in Bombay in my previous play without thinking there is horse, because under the normal map generator, a different resource won't appear in the 8 tile nearby of another except for in cap BFC, there is already stone there. Furthermore, Horse is "impossible" to be generated by the river except for cap BFC (I said "impossible", because that's what the code tells but I indeed saw several exceptions which can only be explained as bug).
However, it's really not the "normal generator" which rules in this map. We can already see some irregularities
Attention: This is the last proposal I'll give. Please say Yes or No with your proposal.
Since Bombay takes the Corn for 5 turns, Delhi has less food than the previous methods. My modification with Worker 1 farming first allows the 4th pop of Delhi to work on the 3F1C tile as soon as it's out. With the food accumulation, Delhi will have 7 pop by the turn after the Oracle. That's just-in-time as we'll wait for the missionary to come to Delhi and gives the happiness.
I think about the micro of the next 20 turns as well.
1) I also found the first GP can be rushed in 5 turns (GS 82%) at the cost of 1 less turn of working on the Silver. That seems to be worth the cost.
2) As Delhi reach 5pop and cause -1gpt due to maintenance, which is the same with 2 pop in Bombay, we can synchronize the growth of Delhi and Bombay (pop=>2) and gain 1C from the additional pop of Bombay working on 2F1C tile.
BTW, the additional pop in Bombay is too good to be converted into cash by being overflow to the mids.
About the horse location:
I've farmed the 2F1C tile in Bombay in my previous play without thinking there is horse, because under the normal map generator, a different resource won't appear in the 8 tile nearby of another except for in cap BFC, there is already stone there. Furthermore, Horse is "impossible" to be generated by the river except for cap BFC (I said "impossible", because that's what the code tells but I indeed saw several exceptions which can only be explained as bug).
However, it's really not the "normal generator" which rules in this map. We can already see some irregularities
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