DLC segregation and multiplayer

Honestly Steam could easily be classified as malicious software. Anything that takes information from a computer without the owners consent and you can't turn the program off sounds very bad to me. I still can't understand why people want to be forced to feed companies private info.
 
Honestly Steam could easily be classified as malicious software. Anything that takes information from a computer without the owners consent and you can't turn the program off sounds very bad to me. I still can't understand why people want to be forced to feed companies private info.
Except it is with your consent (read the privacy policy and then decide whether you want to install it), and you can easily turn it off (alt+f4 works pretty well).
 
Oh guys, you're really not getting it at all. :sad:

In case the Steam software should be used to download each DLC onto anyones computer (and that was the common understanding at the beginning of this thread), even on the computers of those who are just sp gamers and have not bought such DLC, that qualifies as "undesired software".
And any software which puts something onto my computer which I don't want - and about which fact I have not been informed! - is by definition "malware" - just because of this sole fact that something is done to which I do not agree.

The excuse that I once may have agreed to the installation of the Steam software in no way implicates any agreement to the installation of such DLC, as long as I don't have the intention to use it. Since I have not bought it, as long as I stay a sp gamer, I have implicitely stated that I don't want to use it.

Furthermore, as far as I see, up to now it has been nowhere stated that Steam might perform such installation of DLC (unnotified, unordered, thus undesired).
So, either the initial assumption of a lot of people here was wrong:
If everyone has to download dlc it will work.
I'm sure this is the way it will happen.(...)
It doesn't make sense any other way.
(...) making sure all DLC is patched into the games core files so thier is no incompatibility.
I'm pretty sure it'll be implemented the same way DLC has been implemented in every other game. That is, you can't 'use' the content if you haven't bought it, (...)
(and so on...)
or the Steam software will become a means to perform undesired actions on somebody's computer.

Now, I honestly understand any excitement of mp gamers to have that DLC present for gaming purposes, may it even be in a passive way. They are playing mp games and for that purpose, the installation of DLC may be meaningful (although still the question of unauthorized use of the user's bandwidth is open).

Yet, the sp gamer, who has not bought the DLC, has neither explicitely nor implicetely consented to such action.
As far as we know, there isn't even any notification about that process.

And that, you may turn as ever you want, is an interference with user rights.

Please, take a minute, make your thoughts about it and then decide whether you are fine with the fact that such a thing is done to someone who neither wants it nor get's informed about it.
That you personally, as far as you and your computer(s) is/are concerned - ok.

The topic is the one who might not be ok with this.
 
She turned me into a newt! *points at Steam*
 
I'm not really understanding the complaint. By using Steam the program may occasionally make use of your computer's resources to do crazy things like write files to your disk. That's hardly outlandish, it's something that practically every program, including the web browser you're viewing this thread in, does.

If you don't want to let Steam do this, don't run Steam. It's not like it uses any tricks to install itself on your computer, it gets there by you putting it there. Again, much like the web browser you're using to view the thread.
 
Boys and girls, let's not make this into another thread about Steam and bandwidth for DLC downloads. The OP was about how multiplayer would work in a mixed environment with some people having certain DLC and some people not having it.

The observation by Tylerryan and Zimbu about the DLC being downloaded to everyone through Steam updates seems the most logical to me. I believe it was indicated by 2K Greg in the Babylon discussion that there was no problem between Babylonners and non-Babylonners in MP since all would have the necessary files.

The only restriction naturally is for things like GOTM that this can only consider the core civs and not any of the DLC add-ons, although I think for Civ3 and Civ4 the GOTM's at somes also have considered the expansions.
 
I was against Steam being required for about, oh, 30 minutes, maybe an hour after I had heard about it, then I actually weighed the pros and cons and the pros came out on top, I haven't been against DLC in any game since I bought my first Oblivion DLC pack(not the stupid horse pack FYI), and I actually have no problems being connected to the internet 99% of the time(even though Civ only requires a one-time connection).

As for DLC segregation, one only has to look at Halo and Call of duty to see that DLC doesn't really divide the community as much as you might think, players with a no DLC can play with players with every DLC without a hitch. Look at world of Warcraft, there are still some players that haven't purchased any expansion(granted, they are in the extreme minority), and they can very easily play with players that have all the expansions.

Patching, as well, is not a new think to gaming. Any respectable game developer will release patches on a very regular basis for at least a year following a game's release, and for multiplayer games, you are required to have the same patch as the person you are playing with, and if you are playing online via steam, that patch has to be the most recent. There is very good reasoning for this, patches usually fix exploits and other methods that people might use to cheat and are typically more balanced mechanics than previous patches.

Finally, as others have said, if your biggest concern is monthly data transfer caps, for patches that may, at absolute most, be 50mb in size, then I recommend finding a new ISP, my cell phone has a 1gb/month data cap, my ISP caps me at 150gb/month and I really don't pay much for my plan, $50 or so.
 
Congratulations to anybody with limited bandwidth and/or limited transfer rates.

"You are going to play our game? Fine, we are going to tell you what kind of internet connection you have to have..."

Eh ? You have to update your client on a regular basis to play pretty much every multiplayer game.
 
In case the Steam software should be used to download each DLC onto anyones computer (and that was the common understanding at the beginning of this thread), even on the computers of those who are just sp gamers and have not bought such DLC, that qualifies as "undesired software"

And any software which puts something onto my computer which I don't want - and about which fact I have not been informed! - is by definition "malware" - just because of this sole fact that something is done to which I do not agree.

The excuse that I once may have agreed to the installation of the Steam software in no way implicates any agreement to the installation of such DLC, as long as I don't have the intention to use it. Since I have not bought it, as long as I stay a sp gamer, I have implicitely stated that I don't want to use it.

You are not forced to download anything. If you want to update the game to the latest patch/version using Steam, it's your choice. If you don't want to update the game to the latest patch/version, you can just keep playing single player forever without downloading a single byte.

Anyway, you are just trolling every single thread into your anti-steam crusade. You may consider try condensing all your rants in a single thread :p
Moderator Action: Please don't accuse people of trolling, or refer to their posts as "rants".
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Anyway, you are just trolling every single thread into your anti-steam crusade. You may consider try condensing all your rants in a single thread :p

No no, he's not trolling. Pay attention. He and Evrett have opinions that are to be RESPECTED damnit! Only pro-Civ5/pro-Steam posts are trolling.

Jeeze, don't you know anything?
Moderator Action: As above.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
Oh guys, you're really not getting it at all. :sad:

In case the Steam software should be used to download each DLC onto anyones computer (and that was the common understanding at the beginning of this thread), even on the computers of those who are just sp gamers and have not bought such DLC, that qualifies as "undesired software".
And any software which puts something onto my computer which I don't want - and about which fact I have not been informed! - is by definition "malware" - just because of this sole fact that something is done to which I do not agree.

The excuse that I once may have agreed to the installation of the Steam software in no way implicates any agreement to the installation of such DLC, as long as I don't have the intention to use it. Since I have not bought it, as long as I stay a sp gamer, I have implicitely stated that I don't want to use it.
You agreed to the EULA, I am pretty much sure that uploading info to you is covered in there. If you do not want this, turn auto-updates off. Easy, and it makes your point - which for some reason seems to be based not on pragmatic concerns but solely on theoretical hardships - moot.

Furthermore, as far as I see, up to now it has been nowhere stated that Steam might perform such installation of DLC (unnotified, unordered, thus undesired).
So, either the initial assumption of a lot of people here was wrong:

or the Steam software will become a means to perform undesired actions on somebody's computer.
It has been mentioned a bazillion times that you need not even put steam in online mode. You need not download anything, yet you insist on using this point to argue that steam is evil. Feel free not to like it, but it sounds xenophobic to me. It makes it seem as if you are not even trying to see the other side of the story, you just want to force feed us your view. It get's old real fast.

Yet, the sp gamer, who has not bought the DLC, has neither explicitely nor implicetely consented to such action. As far as we know, there isn't even any notification about that process.
EULA. Yes you have. Do not believe for a second that steam will use your internet connection in ways that were impossible to foresee. A good, careful reader will know exactly what steam will do, and how to prevent it. It is the careless user who is surprised with the way steam uses your bandwidth. It is up to you to decide in which category of users you fit most, but given your responses in here I think we can make an informed guess...


And that, you may turn as ever you want, is an interference with user rights.

Please, take a minute, make your thoughts about it and then decide whether you are fine with the fact that such a thing is done to someone who neither wants it nor get's informed about it.
That you personally, as far as you and your computer(s) is/are concerned - ok.

The topic is the one who might not be ok with this.
Ok -> register and play civ5. Not ok -> do not buy civ5. No issues arrive here.

What I fail to see is why this simple concept is so hard to grasp for some. Some people act as if it is their right to play civ5. If you choose to play civ5, you must accept everything that comes with it. You can back out of it. If you go through with it and install the game, you forefeit the right to complain about the terms. If it is a big deal, uninstall the game.

I can see why people are disappointed with this, but that is hardly a freebee to bash steam or civ5.
 
Boys and girls, let's not make this into another thread about Steam and bandwidth for DLC downloads. The OP was about how multiplayer would work in a mixed environment with some people having certain DLC and some people not having it.

The observation by Tylerryan and Zimbu about the DLC being downloaded to everyone through Steam updates seems the most logical to me. I believe it was indicated by 2K Greg in the Babylon discussion that there was no problem between Babylonners and non-Babylonners in MP since all would have the necessary files.

The only restriction naturally is for things like GOTM that this can only consider the core civs and not any of the DLC add-ons, although I think for Civ3 and Civ4 the GOTM's at somes also have considered the expansions.
I am sure that the kind and talented people of GOTM can make a mod that disqualifies Babylon as a playable civ or as an opponent in ranked games, or can mod in another solution that we can agree on is fair. If not, the GOTM will have to work with what is provided to them and with all the hardships that come with it.
 
Problems like this should be easily avoidable. Say player A has one more civ than player B. Since those assets have nothing to do with the core game that civ could be excluded, or just grayed out, from the list of available civs when going into multiplayer mode. I don't see how this can't be done. :)
 
Oh guys, you're really not getting it at all. :sad:

or the Steam software will become a means to perform undesired actions on somebody's computer.

It's not undesired. I purchased the game understanding that it IS on Steam, that it WILL have a EULA which I WILL accept, that it WILL have DLC, that it DOES have multiplayer which I intend to use. Steam has clearly turned me into an automaton without any free will.

Yet, the sp gamer, who has not bought the DLC, has neither explicitely nor implicetely consented to such action.
As far as we know, there isn't even any notification about that process.

You've both explicitly and implicitly consented, actually. Steam goons aren't going to break into your house while you are away and install their malware on your computer. There is a notification, the download meter and messages like "Steam had downloaded updates to Civilization V", oh and you know, the EULAs.

And that, you may turn as ever you want, is an interference with user rights.

You have to purchase the game, you have to accept the EULA. Which "user rights" are being interfered with?

Please, take a minute, make your thoughts about it and then decide whether you are fine with the fact that such a thing is done to someone who neither wants it nor get's informed about it.

I'm totally fine with it because your arguments don't make sense. If you neither want it nor are informed about (actually you are), then don't purchase the game, don't install Steam on your computer.

It seems like you just don't like the Steam platform for various reasons, and that's totally fine. But let's not go overboard and stretch it to the point where you refer to it as "malware" and make it seem like the software is doing anything without the user's consent.
 
Problems like this should be easily avoidable. Say player A has one more civ than player B. Since those assets have nothing to do with the core game that civ could be excluded, or just grayed out, from the list of available civs when going into multiplayer mode. I don't see how this can't be done. :)
Yes indeed, or it can work like modern warfare 2 works. In that game you can download additional maps, and if you want to play them you need to select them from the menu. The game then searches for opponents who also have those maps. If you want to play a game with friends who do not have the map, you can play normal maps and play them with your friends.

Because steam does a fine job with things like this I suspect no trouble will arise from these issues.
 
the OP question is more in the line of the Bioshock 2 DLC (2K Games too), where there was an increased level cap and some unlocks that only people that PAID for the 26kb key could unlock, because the content was already in the disc when they bought it.

It's REASONABLE to expect that if the content was in the disc when you bought it, they won't charge you to USE IT. I won't say it's plain WRONG to do that, but I will be annoyed if that's the case.

to each company its own, but Relic thought it was nice to include 2 or 3 maps in their PATCHES for Dawn of War 2 (and they have to pay for the MS certification of the patches because of GFWL), Epic also made quite a big free patch that included new content for UT3. I BELIEVE Firaxis would do like them if it wasn't for 2k.
 
On-topic (and getting off these ridiculous "patches are malware" argument):

How did CivRev's MP work with the DLC wonders? I never bought any of the wonder packs, and I never played the MP, so I wouldn't know, but it seems like that precedent would be the most accurate to how Civ5 will handle such matters.

My first guess would be that Babylon is either disabled for MP or that everyone can play in a game with it (via those infernal tools of the underworld known as "patches"), but only those that bought the DLC can play as Neb. Unless Babylon is disgustingly overpowered for MP, it won't be much of an issue. I don't see the addition of one civ out of 15 being cause enough to have DLC-only MP matchmaking.

For the patches, I don't know what the industry precedent is, but I won't be surprised if Firaxis tacks on a few tweaks/bugfixes/goodies to the DLC compatibility patches. If you're already rolling out a big (due to the addition of leaderbodies/units/buildings geometry and textures) patch, there's no reason to not throw on a few extra kilobytes to balance Autocracy and make Acoustics not a worthless dead-end.
 
On-topic (and getting off these ridiculous "patches are malware" argument):

How did CivRev's MP work with the DLC wonders? I never bought any of the wonder packs, and I never played the MP, so I wouldn't know, but it seems like that precedent would be the most accurate to how Civ5 will handle such matters.

In CivRev only DLC that all party members owned was usable. This was fine for a console game and the DLC packs were only wonders, artifacts and maps. But full Civs that could be critical to a players strategies would be a major problem to be disabled. Not to mention HOF and GOTM is likely going to be split about this.
 
Here's the thing-unless the DLC actually changes the *code* itself, then there's no reason I can see why you shouldn't be able to play MP games with people who don't have said DLC. If Civ4 MP games is anything to go by, you'll be warned if you have files that the other players lack-& they'll be warned that you have files they don't have-but it won't stop you playing MP. Certainly things like extra Civs & Maps will have zero impact on MP games (though individual players might have a house-rule saying that you can't use DLC civs in the MP games).
My advice though would be to have a single version of the game-in a separate directory-that remains forever unmodified-to allow you to play MP games. That's what we did when we had an ongoing MP game in an older patch about the time a new patch came out.

Aussie.
 
Here's the thing-unless the DLC actually changes the *code* itself, then there's no reason I can see why you shouldn't be able to play MP games with people who don't have said DLC.
Actually, this is a point that has been worrying away in the back of my mind, and I think now it's ready to leap out...

Civ4 had the simple, and easily modded, approach of traits where a Civ/Leader is simply assigned two traits from a short list; in Civ5 each Civ has a special ability which is more unique...but how does that get modded in? How would I (if it didn't already exist) add in a trait like "The Glory of Rome" (20% bonus to production when a building already exists in the capital) without changing code?
How am I to add, say, Sealand ( :) ) with special ability of building cities on ocean tiles [that slow down foreign navies that come within 6 hexes], without changing the code?

We are told UUs/UBs are also being given more unique abilities rather than simple stats changes from base units/buildings. So again...unless provision for a unique ability already exists in the code how do we create a new UU/UB with a great new unique ability without changing the code?

...and more to the point how does Firaxis release all these new Civs, with great new abilities, as DLC...unless all the special abilities they want to use are already in the code and available, which seems just a little too convenient, not to say prescient...without changing the code?

I guess it is possible these abilities are all done through LUA, but that means any special ability I might dream up is limited by the available hooks.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
 
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