SGOTM 12 - ChokoMisfits

Turn Set Paused when Edge of De Gaulle's Border was Sited:

We are 7t from completing Mathematics (assuming no changes in Research rate which changes next turn BTW). Second Gold Mine will be completed in 1t. Library will be completed in 1t. Population will grow to 4 in 1t.

I suspect that De Gaulle isn't actually on our Continent, but on an Island or Continent accessible via Galleys. I suggest that we carefully move our exploring Warrior very carefully (to avoid De Gaulle seeing it) and probe the edge of his Border without making contact. The longer De Gaulle is kept in the Dark about the location of our Warrior or anything else that we own, the better it will be for us. However, we still do want to know the extant of our Home Continent. We can build a third Warrior to explore North sending the currently exploring Warrior south probing for De Gaulle's Border.

We should start thinking about an "early rush" of our closest neighbor. Maybe via War Elephants and Catapults which would cost us Researching Construction? We will need 1-2 Galleys, if he really isn't on our Continent.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 2560 BC to 2120 BC:


Turn 38, 2480 BC: Mao Zedong adopts Slavery!

Turn 41, 2360 BC: You have trained a Worker in Capital. Work has now begun on a Library.

Turn 47, 2120 BC: Capital has become healthy.
Turn 47, 2120 BC: Capital will grow to size 4 on the next turn.

autolog (I got it working by t38) is:



The save is at:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm12/ChokoMisfits_SG012_BC2120_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Sun Tzu Wu

Summaries updated. Hap is now up

JerichoHill said:

Summaries updated. Hap is now up

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JerichoHill, perhaps you misunderstood ...

My intention was to complete Mathematics (as mentioned in my PPP for this Turn Set) after I got input from the Team on whether carefully probing De Gaulle's Border sounds reasonable.

I do believe it was reasonable to pause the Turn Set as soon as an AI's presence was detected. Otherwise, I apologize for the delay.

BTW, my schedule for Saturday did open up a bit and I'm able to discuss the plans for the remainder of my Turn Set for a few hours this afternoon and also very late this evening. I could finish my turn set very late this evening or very early Sunday morning.

Sun Tzu Wu

Yup, completely misundestood. Sorry!

Obviously avoiding De Gaulle is smart.

Catapults with anything would work. Construction would seem smart, but perhaps we can eval that after mathematics. De Gaulle could easily encounter our exploring warrior

Please keep the warrior in trees and hills

Some of the AIs are starting to meet one another. Hopefully they will start spending their EP on each other and not entirely on us.

I am not sure I understand why we would not check out DeGaulle's land with our warrior. We already have contact with DeGaulle (and with everyone). And I do not believe the AI actually uses knowledge of where an exploring unit appeared to find people, especially since we already have diplomatic contact. We do need to be careful since we are at war, and do not want to lose our warrior. But that can be managed by sticking to defensibly terrain, using rivers, etc.

As for attacking DeGaulle...what would we gain? We can not kill him by scenario rule. I suppose we could try to smash his new cities, or maybe even burn his capital and leave him with only a new city. But this would represent a sizable investment of hammers and research this early in the game, diverted from our ongoing development efforts. Would we gain enough to make this worthwhile?

On roster order, please move me down in the order. As I mentioned earlier, I will be travelling during the coming week (plus a few days) and will be away from my Civ computer. I may post a comment or two if I can find time and access, but will mostly be away from the net.

haphazard1 said:

I am not sure I understand why we would not check out DeGaulle's land with our warrior. We already have contact with DeGaulle (and with everyone). And I do not believe the AI actually uses knowledge of where an exploring unit appeared to find people, especially since we already have diplomatic contact. We do need to be careful since we are at war, and do not want to lose our warrior. But that can be managed by sticking to defensibly terrain, using rivers, etc.

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We are at War with All Civs and they are All Furious with us. They will throw all their excess military units at us as soon as they can locate us. My intention is to find out as much as possible the extant of De Gaulle's Border without revealing the location of our Warrior and by implication our Cities. If De Gaulle is on an island or another Continent as I suspect, it may be a while before he sends units near our Capital or any where on our Continent. In either case, Warriors will not be a very good garrison for our Capital. We will need a good Military Technology soon for both Defense and Offense.

haphazard1 said:

As for attacking DeGaulle...what would we gain? We can not kill him by scenario rule. I suppose we could try to smash his new cities, or maybe even burn his capital and leave him with only a new city. But this would represent a sizable investment of hammers and research this early in the game, diverted from our ongoing development efforts. Would we gain enough to make this worthwhile?

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We are already at War. The point is to reduce his ability to produce units and by implication his ability to build and use Nuclear Weapons. We should do this to all Civs that will not be good trade partners. Also, we may need to kill units of some Civs before they will be willing to make Peace. We may make use of some of De Gaulle's captured Cities or raze them and settle our own Cities in his Lands.

We are not likely to do this anytime soon. It may be 50 turns form now before we will want to attack a Civ that we are already at War with. We are currently at War with them all.

Sun Tzu Wu

If anyone has more to say about the fact that we know about where one of De Gaulle's Cities is and avoiding unit contact with him (so isn't even aware of our Warrior at all), please comment by 12 hours from now.

I plan to complete Mathematics in 7 more turns, starting 12 hours from now.

Sun Tzu Wu

I have to agree with haphazard1 here I'm pretty sure DeGaulle will know where our city is (and all the other AI) because we already have contact. Another little bug with the game but we can keep the warrior away from his borders just in case.

If he is on another island though it makes the GLh a good build as I'm sure we will be taking a lot of cities in this game. Especially as our island isn't the greatest. Better to expand elsewhere. Also wonder if we get the city ruins bonus as there are a few of them around.

Remember we can cripple an AI and if another AI kills them off it doesn't affect our game only if we do it.

It also looks like we won't be able to trade many techs in this game so war is looking a better option. I would be thinking of 3 cities one on the hill near DeGaulle for a navy and the capital + 1 for troops. This way we could keep a strong research rate as a cat/phant war looks like a good option to me.

I would be more inclined to playing peacefully if we could trade techs but that doesn't look likely. Peace/tech trades should be possible with Ghandi/American not to sure on the others so would cripple them.

Have to keep posts small as every time I post I get the you are not logged in message and can't copy/paste at work.

Contact Bug:

Sleepless said:

I have to agree with haphazard1 here I'm pretty sure DeGaulle will know where our city is (and all the other AI) because we already have contact. Another little bug with the game but we can keep the warrior away from his borders just in case.

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Both haphazard1 and you are probably wrong about this. The effects of alleged/unconfirmed bugs are extremely hard to verify. If this bug really does exist and the Game developers are aware of it, it should have been patched, and perhaps it is patched in BtS 3.19.

I recent answer on the GOTM-12 Rules thread further suggests that this is unlikely due to how contact between us and all other Civs was initially established by Erkon:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9751845&postcount=169

I find it unacceptable that a Player has to know about bugs detrimental to his play in order to avoid them. Such bugs should be fixed not tolerated. [An open source (Open Source Initiative)/free software (GNU General Public License) Game would fix all known bugs promptly unlike in a Commercial, Partially Closed Source Game like BtS.]

Conquest of De Gaulle's Cities:

Sleepless said:

If he is on another island though it makes the GLh a good build as I'm sure we will be taking a lot of cities in this game. Especially as our island isn't the greatest. Better to expand elsewhere. Also wonder if we get the city ruins bonus as there are a few of them around.

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Agree that we should capture De Gaulle's Cities that are relatively close to our Capital. Not sure whether keeping them or razing them would be the better option though. It depends on the unhappiness due to wanting to join with the "Mother" land.

What bonus would a City Ruins provide? I've never noticed such a bonus, though I must admit that I rarely encounter City Ruins in my Games (I usually keep Cities I capture ).

Civ Survival Rule:

Sleepless said:

Remember we can cripple an AI and if another AI kills them off it doesn't affect our game only if we do it.

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I would be very careful about this rule. I'm not sure we can cripple an AI down to a single weak City and claim we did our best to ensure its survival when another AI captures that AI's last City.

Sun Tzu Wu

I think the "We did our best" is so open to interpretation we're free to do whatever, WE just cannot kill off a CIV by OUR actions (whether ourselves or goading an AI to DOW another.

Sleepless said:

It also looks like we won't be able to trade many techs in this game so war is looking a better option. I would be thinking of 3 cities one on the hill near DeGaulle for a navy and the capital + 1 for troops. This way we could keep a strong research rate as a cat/phant war looks like a good option to me.

I would be more inclined to playing peacefully if we could trade techs but that doesn't look likely. Peace/tech trades should be possible with Ghandi/American not to sure on the others so would cripple them.

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Thanks Sleepless for you concurring opinion on this subject. We do need to start thinking about our means of conducting this War. The Grand Strategy of our Game should be perhaps stated a bit more formally; it actually seems to be changing as the Game progresses, because this Game's parameters are so strange - Its definitely not Always War although the Diplomacy Values might be all Furious if they could be accessed.

I suggest that we try to structure our Game Strategy based on the definitions in the following Article:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/strat_tactics_logistics.php

I will note that the Civ V AI has been structured in a fashion quite similar to this. Although this fact has no concrete application to Civ IV, BtS AIs must do the same things though they may not have any such clear structure, they must solve the same problems on the way to Winning the Game just as a Player must do.

Although the Civ V AI currently functions well below what a competent Player can muster, the clearly divided structure will allow more rapid advances in the AIs weighting of the various alternatives. A similar structuring of Strategy will allow the Player to conceive of new Strategies and ways to implement them by "Divide and Conquer" types of Stratagems.

This type of Strategy development will probably be new to us all, except Military Professionals, and especially painful as I'm not aware of any Civ IV Walk-Throughs for it.

I'm just saying we could try at least some "baby steps" in this direction. I think we will find that it will generate better results than Ad Hoc Strategy development that is probably universally applied by even the very best Civ IV Players. Some of the best Civ IV Players seem to have an intuitive understanding of the Game that allows them to Win very early, but other Players applying such Structured Strategies that I'm advocating will shortly leave the "Intuitive" Players in the dust.

We probably don't have enough time in SGTOM-12 to formalize a new Strategic Approach, but I'm certain that informally thinking in terms of the definitions in the article linked to above will significantly improve our performance and likely lead to a Gold Laurels performance. I strongly suspect that the SGTOM-12 Teams are already deeply divided into chaff (no offense intended) and grain; we are one of the "grain" Teams; let us sprout and dominate this Game! All of the Players on our Team are very strong and very knowledgeable; we need only to really apply ourselves to Win!

Sun Tzu Wu

Debriefing:

Gandhi appears to have completed Mathematics on the same turn we did. Thus trading Mathematics for Peace is not possible and this makes getting Alphabet more difficult yet.

Largest Civilizations announced on t51:

Gandhi (2 Cities)
Mao Zedong (2 Cities)
De Gaulle
Catherine (us)
Churchill
Stalin

Gandhi and Mao Zedong appear to be the only leaders with 2 City Empires; all the rest still have just 1 City, including us.

Confession: I built a Work Boat in 3t rather than build a Warrior right after Library. The Warrior will complete in 3t. Having the Clam Nets gains us +1 Health and another 4F tile that can be used sooner than the 2nd Cow Pasture yet to be built. In 3t, we can run a second Scientist and still have at least +4 Fpt Growth, assuming -1 Health with Population 5.

The exploring Warrior still remains undetected by De Gaulle. De Gaulle's Border expended recently; his Capital is now at radius 3 as indicated by the Edge of his Border. Let's continue to never allow our Warrior to be seen from any Tile in De Gaulle's Culture (or any AI's Culture for that matter).

Here is your Session Turn Log from 2120 BC to 1920 BC:

Turn 47, 2120 BC: You have constructed a Library in Capital. Work has now begun on a Warrior.

Turn 51, 1960 BC: You have discovered Mathematics!

Turn 52, 1920 BC: Capital has become healthy.

autolog.txt file:



The uploaded save can be found here:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm12/ChokoMisfits_SG012_BC1920_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Some initial ideas:

We now have a lot of options. Completing Horseback Riding and Archery would provide us with the ability to build Horse Archers. Sailing would allow building a Galley and Coastal exploration. We could even build Masonry and Construction which would allow building Catapults.

However, right now, we probably should keep our focus on The Oracle -> Civil Service and building a Settler. So we may have to consider Mysticism -> Polytheism or Meditation -> Priesthood -> Code of Laws.

Sun Tzu Wu

Unfortunate with Gandhi teching Math, but that is one of the risks. This is why I think we should continue to stick with researching what we need for our own plans. If this turns out to give us trade opportunities, great; if not, at least we are benefitting and progressing with our plans.

I think we need to head through the religious techs starting immediately if we want Oracle for CS. It is unlikely we will get anything in trade anytime soon due to the diplomatic situation.

On AIs and elimination, I rechecked the scenario conditions:

Teams will not be penalized for events outside the team's control, such as:

* one AI killing the other before the team has the opportunity to prevent it

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I read this to mean we need to actively prevent the death of any AI we know to be in danger, including extreme measures like gifting them a city, etc. "Before the team has the opportunity to prevent it" would be a situation like two AIs on another continent reachable only by Astro fighting a war while we are still teching much earlier in the tree. Wiping out DeGaulle -- or allowing him to be wiped out -- would be a violation of the rules since he is on our continent, location known to us, etc.

If we crush him (or any other AI) down to one city, we need to make certain no one else takes him out.

I believe we should continue towards the Oracle as we planned

Sun Tzu Wu said:

Gandhi appears to have completed Mathematics on the same turn we did. Thus trading Mathematics for Peace is not possible and this makes getting Alphabet more difficult yet.

Click to expand...

haphazard1 said:

Unfortunate with Gandhi teching Math, but that is one of the risks.

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??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Surely, the reason Mathematics doesn't display on the Gandhi trading screen is because he is missing the pre-requisite (Writing)... it is not because he already has Mathematics......

Sun Tzu Wu said:

Attitude Change: De Gaulle (France) towards Stalin the Despicable (Old Russia), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: Stalin the Despicable (Old Russia) towards De Gaulle (France), from 'Pleased' to 'Cautious'

Attitude Change: De Gaulle (France) towards Churchill (England), from 'Annoyed' to 'Cautious'
Attitude Change: De Gaulle (France) towards Stalin the Despicable (Old Russia), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'
Attitude Change: Stalin the Despicable (Old Russia) towards De Gaulle (France), from 'Cautious' to 'Pleased'

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This part confuses me, because, according to the F4 screens, none of the AIs have yet met one another... yet this is not consistent with the above statements......

ianw1610 said:

Surely, the reason Mathematics doesn't display on the Gandhi trading screen is because he is missing the pre-requisite (Writing)... it is not because he already has Mathematics......

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My apologies to everyone for overlooking fact that Gandhi still lacks Writing and thus can't accept Writing.

The situation is thus far better than I had expected. We'll just have to check for Gandhi completing Writing every turn and when he does have Writing, we will have 100% of Mathematics to trade to him for Peace, since none of his Research can be applied to Mathematics on the turn he completes Writing.

I agree with haphazard1 and JerichoHill on Researching the Religious Technologies which as I understand it means that path which provides Theology via The Oracle:

Mysticism -> Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Code of Laws

In three turns we can hire another Scientist and still have about +4 Fpt growth.

Sun Tzu Wu

OK, have been off sick for a few days so haven't been around.

Things looking fine, I think as discussed we head for the Oracle slingshot before thinking about any warring.

Pity we can't get no peace though...

Agree as well on tech route towards oracle and CS.

Regarding the AI they all know each other because of the previous war where we have all been nuked back to the Stone Age although they might not have contact.

Potential friends and enemies where possible I would be looking at Roo/Ghandi as friends and the other AI likely to be enemies with all the modifiers we have unlikely to trade much with them. I still advocate war as our main means of research, extort techs and build many cities (imperialistic helps).

This leads on to possible city sites any good dot mappers out there though I think we should limit the amopunt we build?

haphazard1 said:

On roster order, please move me down in the order. As I mentioned earlier, I will be travelling during the coming week (plus a few days) and will be away from my Civ computer. I may post a comment or two if I can find time and access, but will mostly be away from the net.

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This means that Ozbenno is up next.