SGOTM 12 - ChokoMisfits

Justification for sailing. It will save us a lot of worker turns hooking up our cities as we have a lot of fallout to clean up so I think regardless of GLh it should come after Wheel/BW.

Don't mind delaying agr but its the only food silk/rice has so will be slow growing till we irrigate it.

Third city I like Cow/ivory site which can at a push take capitals fish. We do need to see the surrounding tiles though so a bit more exploration never hurts.

Personally I like the thought of early military and cat/phants would fit the bill plus archers make cheap/good city defenders early. So Wheel/BW/Sail/Arch using binary research when needed. If I don't hear anything will clear fallout from site near cows being very wary of Mao's archers.

Sleepless said:

Justification for sailing. It will save us a lot of worker turns hooking up our cities as we have a lot of fallout to clean up so I think regardless of GLh it should come after Wheel/BW.

Don't mind delaying agr but its the only food silk/rice has so will be slow growing till we irrigate it.

Third city I like Cow/ivory site which can at a push take capitals fish. We do need to see the surrounding tiles though so a bit more exploration never hurts.

Personally I like the thought of early military and cat/phants would fit the bill plus archers make cheap/good city defenders early. So Wheel/BW/Sail/Arch using binary research when needed. If I don't hear anything will clear fallout from site near cows being very wary of Mao's archers.

Click to expand...

Sounds good. We can always go back to Pottery when we really need Granary for growth. Also, we can get Agriculture when we can spare the Worker turns to irrigate Rice. So we can fit these two somewhere near the end (if not the end) of:

The Wheel (Chariots) -> Bronze Working (Copper, Axemen, Spearmen) -> Sailing (Connect Cities/Domestic Trade Routes) -> Archery (Archers, HA prereq.) -> Horseback Riding (Stable, Horse Archers, WE prereq.) -> Construction (War Elephants, Catapults, Bridges).

We are going to need Hammers to build Settlers and Military units plus Commerce to support them and built/conquered Cities/Workers, yet still have enough left for 50% or more Research on average to maintain Research push toward Rocketry, eventually. There are many nearby Hills for Mines; we need to Dot Map our planned Cities.

Sun Tzu Wu

Oops something I didn't mention the free missionary. Suggest he either explores or goes to capital where we can build monastery/temple. In fact I'd prefer to explore as we don't have the time at the moment to build and with sailing should get free spread? Shame we can't use him to spread a different religion to the AI.

Will check for peace and if possible will take it especially with Mao!!

I think we can wait a handful more turns (should be 2 for Wheel then 3 for BW) to reveal copper, then we can build our dotmaps. Planning now will be tentative and may have to be redone if copper pops up somewhere nearby.

Pottery would be nice not just for granaries but also so we can build some cottages. But we can delay it for a while longer, as we do not currently have free population to work cottage tiles.

Sleepless,

I do not think we can explore with the Confu missionary -- he would need a covering military unit, which could explore by itself. With fallout the missionary would not get a move advantage. I agree it is unfortunate we can not use him to spread Confu to an AI, but we might as well use him at the Capital. We get some culture and it will give us the option to adopt Confu for happiness or build a temple.

I suppose as long as we are not paying unit maintenance that we could keep him asleep at Capital and hope we get peace soon. But if he is costing us anything, go ahead and convert Capital.

Do think we need another couple of workers before a settler so plenty of time to dotmap and hopefully we will have a better view of the surrounding land. Especially to the NW. There is some nice land once cleared of fallout but no real rivers which jump out as good cottage lands expecially for a non-financial civ.

If we go cataphant bronze is not so important and they will be good for a 2000 years plus at this level especially with the fallout start everyone has. We would lose less as well as the AI won't spam spears. Just need 3 or 4 cities to build them quickly though we won't need to many. More important is how far the AI are away? I guess DG is on a different land mass as we haven't seen any of his units.

Sleepless said:

Do think we need another couple of workers before a settler so plenty of time to dotmap and hopefully we will have a better view of the surrounding land. Especially to the NW. There is some nice land once cleared of fallout but no real rivers which jump out as good cottage lands expecially for a non-financial civ.

If we go cataphant bronze is not so important and they will be good for a 2000 years plus at this level especially with the fallout start everyone has. We would lose less as well as the AI won't spam spears. Just need 3 or 4 cities to build them quickly though we won't need to many. More important is how far the AI are away? I guess DG is on a different land mass as we haven't seen any of his units.

Click to expand...

Agreed. We need 2 Workers before another Settler.

We could delay Bronze Working somewhat, but we need to know where Copper is before we settle the next City. (We should have known that before settling our 2nd City.) A Copper Mine provides a significant Hpt, if its in the BFC (Ring 1 if Catherine was not Creative).

Sun Tzu Wu

Aargh though this is my own fault as at home and should have written to note pad first!!!! Lost post due to visit our sponsors someone really doesnt like me.

Anyway here goes again. Though will be shorter.

Turn 0

Moved units trying to keep warrior alive and in forest/hills where possible. Did find more of DG's border to the South.

Turn 1

Oracle built took Civil Service and adopted bureacracy.

Turn 2

Putting out 70 beakers at -3

Turn 3

Wheel - BW
Barracks - Chariot

Turn 4

WB - Barracks wb sent exploring
Chariot - Chariot

Turn 5

Chariot - Worker
Rename Moscow - Copper Town We have Copper 1W of Copper Town.

Turn 6

Sailin - Arch

Turn 7

Worker - Worker
Peace with Ghandi for Writing/AH
Arch - Hbr though turned tech off for 2 turns so can run 100 % for a while now whatever way we go.

Turn 8

Nil

I stopped here as we need to decide where we are going to go from here. I Fancy 2 more cities quickly from the capital. First where I wanted under the cow to the West. Second on the coast near DG for ships if we need them. Lots of overlap but no real option with all the fallout and we want a quick military victory (which we do) Though still need to discover how his land looks and with prooper units no fear now.

Secondly do we gift Ghandi Math and hope he trades us Alpha for CoL or do we forego that and tech it ourselves?

Really think we need to take that decsion now.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 950 BC to 725 BC:


P.S Cap is working ph instead of clam for hammer bonus and bigger overflow to next settler.

Save is uploaded.

We finally have peace!! Good work...

I assume Gandhi is refusing to trade at all, risky giving him maths but mioght be our only chance to get a trade for Alphabet from him.

Two chariots are good but we should get some axes about as well. Chariots should map out DeGaulle's land better.

Looks like good turns, Sleepless!

Copper at our second city...very nice. Peace with Gandhi...I wonder why he changed? Writing + AH earlier was not enough for him. My best guess is that adding Wheel, BW, Archery, barracks and chariots shifted our power balance enough that he was willing to make peace. During my turnset our power ratio was only 0.4 of his; probably we are much stronger (relatively) now and that shifted his attitude.

We should check if other AIs (Roosevelt and Churchill, most important, but whoever we can get minus Stalin and DeGaulle) will also make peace.

I think we could just tech Alpha ourselves, rather than giving Gandhi Math + CoL just to get Alpha and maybe get him willing to trade. He has a handful of small stuff we could use, but we could probably tech those ourselves pretty quickly -- certainly faster than Gandhi could manage to tech Math + CoL. If we can get peace with other civs, and therefore pick up the small techs from multiple sources for our own small techs -- and not have to give away big stuff -- that would be worth doing. But the power of tech trading is not nearly as great if we only have one trade partner.

Good turnset, Sleepless!

I'd gift Mathematics to Gandhi... try to get him to Cautious, get Open Borders with him, and get him to be open to trading (although as discussed, don't take any 1-turn / 2-turn techs from him in a trade).

Research-wise, I'd go for Alphabet next, but if we are able to pick this up in a trade from Gandhi (for CoL) in the meantime, then go ahead and do so... then try to get peace with Churchill, Roosevelt and Mao, using tech bribes. After that, Horseback Riding will likely be most useful, for our continued aggression.

Are we interested in The Colossus? If so, we may want to research Pottery & Metal Casting... It looks like The Great Lighthouse will be of negligible benefit to us...

Important - do we know if our Workers can clear Fallout, outside of our cultural borders?? I'm asking because I see a 2-tile island, a long way from land... and both tiles have Fallout. As we can't settle on either of the tiles, it would take a lonnnnnnnnng time for us to build a city with Cultural borders stretched out that far. If someone can test whether or not Fallout can be cleared outside of our borders, that would be a great help.

The following 3 people are yet to play a turnset... the first one to post a got-it can be next up...
McArine
Mighty Dwaarf
ArcadicGamber

Yes you must be able to clear fallout otherwise we wouldn't be able to settle any cities. Collussus is an idea with copper it will be a quick build but think we should concentrate on military/settlers and gain land gold that way.

Our best chance of tech trading in this game is with Ghandi so if we can get him to cautious we might get a few techs that way. So I would try the gift math and trade for alpha with Col if possible. Otherwise teching alpha to get peace with Mao atm wouldn't bother with anyone else might be an idea.

I've got it.

I think we should focus a lot on expanding for a while, both through founding cities, and grabbing the ones we want.

Plans for the turnset:
Research, continue towards Cataphants: Horseback riding, Masonry, Construction.

Capital: Worker, Settler, Stable, Horse Archer, Settler.
Copper Town: Barracks, Archer.
New City: I suggest putting it at the place the northern chariot is located, 1W of cows. Then Archer, barracks.

Trading: Gift mathematics, and try to get alphabet for CoL. We could also wait 4 turns for horseback riding, and throw that onto the pile too.

Continue scouting north and south, and cleaning fallout.
If I get alphabet, try to make peace with Roosevelt, Churchill, (and Mao). Do we want peace with Mao, as he most likely is on our continent, shouldn't we just go for him first?

Thoughts, comments?
I plan to play in 24 hours time, can be pushed another day, if we don't have consensus.

McArine,

Your plan sounds good overall. A couple possible changes:

- I think we should go for 2 workers from Capital before a settler. We need a lot of worker turns for fallout, roads, and improvements.

- I do not like the idea of giving Gandhi all of Math, CoL, and HBR just to get Alpha. Getting Gandhi to cautious and maybe getting some trades would be good, but let's not give away too much. Alpha is not that expensive. Math for relations and CoL for trade sounds OK, but is already giving away a lot of beakers.

I'd prefer to wait the 4 turns and gift HBR to see if we can then get the Alphabet trade, Gandhi we're at peace with so gifting him HBR should be fine, he won't build a big military, he can get more advantage out of Maths.

I'd like to see us get to six cities (settlers or taken) quickly and rush to Education for Oxford uni.

Not sure about the archer in copper town, is it for garrison duty there? If not, a chariot or axe would be better.

Great Lighthouse, yes or no?? If yes we need that lighthouse built in the capital soon. I think probably not at this stage. Colossus might be a better option (we will have plenty of sea tiles to work). Should think about Moaoi Statues as well somewhere.

McArine said:

I've got it.

I think we should focus a lot on expanding for a while, both through founding cities, and grabbing the ones we want.

Plans for the turnset:
Research, continue towards Cataphants: Horseback riding, Masonry, Construction.

Capital: Worker, Settler, Stable, Horse Archer, Settler.
Copper Town: Barracks, Archer.
New City: I suggest putting it at the place the northern chariot is located, 1W of cows. Then Archer, barracks.

Trading: Gift mathematics, and try to get alphabet for CoL. We could also wait 4 turns for horseback riding, and throw that onto the pile too.

Continue scouting north and south, and cleaning fallout.
If I get alphabet, try to make peace with Roosevelt, Churchill, (and Mao). Do we want peace with Mao, as he most likely is on our continent, shouldn't we just go for him first?

Thoughts, comments?
I plan to play in 24 hours time, can be pushed another day, if we don't have consensus.

Click to expand...

Sounds good, except definitely do not trade away any Military Technologies like Horseback Riding. We definitely have excellent Research for a while with an Academy and Bureaucracy, so we can trade a few moderate sized Techs like gifting Mathematics to get Open Borders and Code of Laws for Alphabet. We should not need to go any futher than that though.

I agree with haphazard1 that we should build two Workers before the 1st Settler.

I would place Dot Maps for the exact place we want to settle and keep our Fallout clearing exclusively inside the BFCs of the most likely places we will settle first.

There's no point is making Peace with Mao Zedong, De Gaulle or Stalin, since none of them will become useful trade partners. The others Gandhi, Roosevelt and Churchill are worth making Peace with for Technology Trades and Foreign Trade Routes, though I don't expect they will be much help with so much Fallout in their Lands. We may also want to make Peace with one or more of the remaining if it appears we might need to repel attacks from more than one at a time. Ideally, we want to capture each of Mao Zedong, De Gaulle and Stalin's Capital, raze their garbage Cities and allow each Civ two (leaving them one City would be too risky) not so good Cities. On the other hand, we don't want to weaken Gandhi, Roosevelt and Churchill too much or not at all or they will not be much help Researching Technology lines we ignore and trade them to us.

Sun Tzu Wu

Ozbenno said:

I'd prefer to wait the 4 turns and gift HBR to see if we can then get the Alphabet trade, Gandhi we're at peace with so gifting him HBR should be fine, he won't build a big military, he can get more advantage out of Maths.

Click to expand...

Good point. I'd be concerned he would trade Horseback Riding, except he won't unless at least other AI get it too.

Ozbenno said:

I'd like to see us get to six cities (settlers or taken) quickly and rush to Education for Oxford uni.

Click to expand...

Agreed. We should be building our cheap Libraries (Creative trait) almost immediately in each new City.

Ozbenno said:

Not sure about the archer in copper town, is it for garrison duty there? If not, a chariot or axe would be better.

Click to expand...

A Chariot might be better. They are very effective against any Axemen stack not protected by a Spearman (or War Elephant).

Ozbenno said:

Great Lighthouse, yes or no?? If yes we need that lighthouse built in the capital soon. I think probably not at this stage. Colossus might be a better option (we will have plenty of sea tiles to work). Should think about Moaoi Statues as well somewhere.

Click to expand...

After building four more Settlers (not all necessarily from Capital), we can start The Colossus. However, even with Copper connected, The Colossus will cost us many Hammers better spent on Horse Archers, War Elephants, and Catapults. The wonder also forces us to Research Iron Working -> Metal Casting when Paper -> Education might be a better goal (after we conclude our Military Technologies sweep through Construction).

Any Great Wonder we build must have real value for our Space Colony Victory goal. We have built the only Great Wonder that bestows its sole value to the builder of it as opposed to the conqueror of it, The Oracle.

Sun Tzu Wu

The Colossus is an interesting idea, especially since we are going to need the Metal Casting -> Machinery route eventually for stronger units and for the Optics naval line. With copper the wonder is very cheap, only 125 base hammers (or 100 in Bur capital, only 6 and a fraction turns at current base hammers). Not something we need to prioritize, since we got the Oracle tech and without that the AIs are usually slow to go for Metal Casting. But we can probably grab it once we get around to researching the tech.

I agree we need more cities soon, and to get libraries up early so we will be ready for Education, unis and Oxford. But they do not all need to be our cities...at least originally. That is what all this military is for, right?

Modified plans for the turnset:
Research, continue towards Cataphants: Horseback riding, Masonry, Construction.

Capital: Worker, Worker, Settler, Stable, Horse Archer, Settler.
Copper Town: Barracks, Axeman, Library.(Archer was for garrison, I didn't want to build mounted units until it has stable)
New City(Ivory Tower): I suggest putting it at the place the northern chariot is located, 1W of cows. Then Archer, barracks. (I'm no good with dotmapping, so someone else please do it.
)
Trading: Gift mathematics, and try to get alphabet for CoL.

Continue scouting north and south, and cleaning fallout.
If I get alphabet, try to make peace with Roosevelt and Churchill.

Thoughts, comments?
I plan to play in 10 hours time, can be pushed another day, if we don't have consensus.

Are we agreed to gift Maths, wait 4 turns to gift HBR (slight preference for me) or not gift at all??

Otherwise, plans seem good to me.