SGOTM 12 - ChokoMisfits

Sun Tzu Wu · Nov 11, 2010

De Gaulle had more units to deal with then expected, so I took the safe route and delayed capturing Rheims for several turns while I picked off his lone units. Taking Rheims cost us a Catapult (expected = 29% odds) and our Horse Archer Medic2 (89% odds). We still have a Chariot Medic 1 though.

I used the Work Boat to try to find a way to Stalin or as close as a Galley could get.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 300 AD to 540 AD:

Spoiler :

The autolog.txt file will be in the next post due to exceeding the maximum posting length (30,000 characters).

Here's the new Game Save, so you can review the progress:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm12/ChokoMisfits_SG012_AD0540_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

I plan to build several Settlers and Workers in the Capital after University is completed (1t left). I also plan to add the new Dot Maps as well when I resume the TS Thursday evening.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · Nov 11, 2010

Here's the autolog.txt file:

Spoiler :

Sun Tzu Wu

JerichoHill · Nov 11, 2010

Rough luck on the medic horse =(. But otherwise, the attack looks good and taking Rheims is worth it. Smart war planning, STW

Sun Tzu Wu · Nov 11, 2010

JerichoHill said:
Rough luck on the medic horse =(. But otherwise, the attack looks good and taking Rheims is worth it. Smart war planning, STW

Thanks, JerichoHill! I probably could have been a bit more aggressive, but I was hoping De Gaulle would suicide his stacks against our initial 6 unit stack. He probably couldn't stand the stench of our War Elephants! Their Collaterally damaged Spearmen (3.1/4.0) didn't have much chance of surviving the charge of our two War Elephants C2 (about 86% in our favor) when attacking Rheims.

Since no one has any comments about my continued plans, I will press forward in about an hour, acting on my plans for continuing my TS this evening. I hope to go an additional 10-15 turns tonight, completing my turn set. I expect that the war will be over by then and we will have many more Cities via Settlers and De Gaulle's kind cooperation!

Sun Tzu Wu

Ozbenno · Nov 11, 2010

Sounds good, more cities will help us now I think. Especially French ones

Sun Tzu Wu · Nov 12, 2010

The Price is:

Paper + Horseback Riding + 65W

Should we take it now? With Philosophy, we just need Liberalism for another free Technology and avoid the risk of trading Education for Philosophy.

Gandhi will complete Paper in 3t.

Gandhi will not trade Philosophy.

This is a good place for a final pause in my TS, so I'm quitting for this evening and will resume Friday evening and go with the consensus on the trade for Philosophy. I think we should take it as it gets us to Rocketry at bit sooner, but I'd like to hear everyone's honest opinion of this trade.

The prospects of taking out Hill City Orleans in 2-3t are excellent, since there are no Spearmen defenders there; just 1 Swordsman, 4 Axemen and an Archer. Unless, De Gaulle is able to reinforce it with several units, our 6 War Elephants, 2 Horse Archers, 2 Chariots (1 WL Medic 3), and 4 Catapults will easily defeat them and losses are likely to be no more than 1-2 Catapults.

Notice the sign I put up about Churchill's stack SSW of Orleans. He will likely take the City 1-NW of that location soon. We will get two more of De Gaulle's better Cities soon ourselves. Then we can make Peace, possibly getting Calendar as part of the deal.

Here is your Session Turn Log from 540 AD to 660 AD:

Spoiler :

autolog.txt file:

Spoiler :

Game Save:

http://gotm.civfanatics.net/saves/civ4sgotm12/ChokoMisfits_SG012_AD0660_01.CivBeyondSwordSave

Sun Tzu Wu

Ozbenno · Nov 12, 2010

If Gandhi is 3 turns from Paper, that trade seems good to me.

ianw1610 · Nov 12, 2010

Looking good so far! And yes, I agree with the proposed trade with Roosevelt.

Just to let you all know... I'm going to be unavailable for the next 2 weeks, because I'm flying out to China (Canton/Guangzhou) on a business trip...

...I'll try my best to log into this site, although not sure to what extent websites are blocked / monitored over there... and given that the conversation topics on this thread over the next 2 weeks are likely to include "the War with the Chinese", and "killing Mao Zedong's armies", I obviously wouldn't want to get myself into trouble!! :lol:

I'll be back on November 27th - hopefully in good time for my next turnset... good luck everyone......

Ozbenno · Nov 12, 2010

Also noticed in the save Churchill will give us Calendar and Monotheism and a bit of change for Civil Service.

We are breaking even at 30% science at the moment. I'd suggest courthouses are important buildings after libraries and universities. Given we may pick up a couple extra cities from de Gaulle this seems wise.

Hanging Gardens and Pyramids are both available, worth a gamble??

McArine · Nov 12, 2010

I think the paper trade is good too.

Civil Service trade, we want to keep peace with Churchill, so I don't mind giving up a military tech, to improve relations.
What else can we get for paper, do we want to trade it around, now that Gandhi is close to getting it?

Sleepless · Nov 12, 2010

I agree with the trade for philo as well.

I think it would be an idea to attack Churchill along the way so no that keen on giving him techs. If we cripple him Mao and DG it won't be hard to keep the peace and we would have Roo and Ghandi to trade with which I think is enough.

Looking at Mao's lands if we take all the cities up to and including his capital and just leave him a couple that would be enough.

Churchill down to London and a couple of others would look quite nice as well in our hands.

Economy. If we have to we can build wealth but I think our main priority at the moment should be adding to our lands through whatever means (military mostly

)

I would rather trade philo next turn to Churchill for something if we do that rather than CS though.

HG would be a good idea if we can get the stone hooked up quick enough. Wouldn't like to tie a city down with the mids atm though.

haphazard1 · Nov 12, 2010

Good work on this turnset, Sun Tzu Wu.

I agree that the Paper trade sounds good, especially with Gandhi almost done researching it. McArine is right that we should check for other possible Paper trades to get what we can for the tech.

Civil Service to Churchill also sounds good -- we have the silks to hook up at CopperTown, among other resources, and everything we can get in trade from the AIs gets us closer to Rocketry. CS is known to some of the AIs, so again we should look for other possible trades.

I agree with Ozbenno that we need some courthouses very soon. This will be an important question once we finish our war with France -- do we stop warring for a while to consolidate our economy, or do we push on against China immediately while our tech edge is strong? Crashing our economy completely would be painful, but grabbing key cities and good land while we are in a dominant position has benefits as well.

Hanging Gardens or Pyramids...I would say they are not worth it. If we had stone hooked up, maybe the HG. But it is very late for Pyramids, and we have other needs for our hammers. Better to let an AI build it and see if we can then capture it. :evil:

Have a good trip, ianw1610! Yes, mentioning the conquest of China would probably not be a good idea. :lol:

Sleepless · Nov 12, 2010

Just a hint/reminder Churchill has GLh and Collussus in London.

Sun Tzu Wu · Nov 12, 2010

Ozbenno said:
Also noticed in the save Churchill will give us Calendar and Monotheism and a bit of change for Civil Service.

We are breaking even at 30% science at the moment. I'd suggest courthouses are important buildings after libraries and universities. Given we may pick up a couple extra cities from de Gaulle this seems wise.

Hanging Gardens and Pyramids are both available, worth a gamble??

Good catch on seeing what Churchill will offer us.

---

Yes, I've been keeping my eye one Maintenance costs. Courthouses in the further away Cities we be good. I suggest building priority as follows:

1) Always build cheap (Creative trait) Libraries, unless there's absolutely no Commerce prospects, but that is rarely the case with multiple trade routes. Therefore always a Library first, unless maintenance is cripplingly high.

2) Build Universities until we get at least six for Oxford University. Build additional Universities in Cities with some Terrain Commerce at least (going over six total Universities).

3) Build Courthouses, in priority of highest maintenance costs first.

4) Build Markets, in priority of highest Commerce. We will eventually have so many Cities that we will consider Research 50% a strong economy, thus 50% of our turns be Wealth turns that Markets can multiply by 125% (+25%).

5) Build Observatories, when we complete Astronomy. I'm hoping we can trade for Compass and later Optics on the way there. Once we have Optics, we should Research Astronomy ourselves. I would be surprised if Gandhi, Roosevelt or Churchill do not start/complete Compass soon.

6) The higher Commerce Cities should build Grocers and Banks when we finally gain access to Guilds and Banking. Six Banks -> Wall Street with Economics sounds good as well. I wonder whether we should reserve both Oxford University and Wall Street for Capital. We should start some Cottages in Capital and keep its Population growing for even more Hammers and Commerce per turn.

---

I considered The Pyramids a while back, but thought we needed Settlers and Workers far more desperately. Plus, we don't have Stone connected yet. Maybe, we can give both these Great Wonders a shot in Capital when Stone is connected?

McArine said:
Civil Service trade, we want to keep peace with Churchill, so I don't mind giving up a military tech, to improve relations.
What else can we get for paper, do we want to trade it around, now that Gandhi is close to getting it?

I will will see what I can get for Paper. Even a moderate amount of Wealth for Paper is better than waiting until no one will trade anything for it.

Sleepless said:
I think it would be an idea to attack Churchill along the way so no that keen on giving him techs. If we cripple him Mao and DG it won't be hard to keep the peace and we would have Roo and Ghandi to trade with which I think is enough.

Looking at Mao's lands if we take all the cities up to and including his capital and just leave him a couple that would be enough.

Churchill down to London and a couple of others would look quite nice as well in our hands.

Economy. If we have to we can build wealth but I think our main priority at the moment should be adding to our lands through whatever means (military mostly )

I would rather trade philo next turn to Churchill for something if we do that rather than CS though.

HG would be a good idea if we can get the stone hooked up quick enough. Wouldn't like to tie a city down with the mids atm though.

All great ideas Sleepless! I especially like waiting one turn and trading Churchill Philosophy for Calendar and Monotheism.

By the way, I should note that someone founded Christianity (completed Theology) a while back. I recall at least one AI City with Christianity.

haphazard1 said:
Civil Service to Churchill also sounds good -- we have the silks to hook up at CopperTown, among other resources, and everything we can get in trade from the AIs gets us closer to Rocketry. CS is known to some of the AIs, so again we should look for other possible trades.

I agree with Ozbenno that we need some courthouses very soon. This will be an important question once we finish our war with France -- do we stop warring for a while to consolidate our economy, or do we push on against China immediately while our tech edge is strong? Crashing our economy completely would be painful, but grabbing key cities and good land while we are in a dominant position has benefits as well.

Hanging Gardens or Pyramids...I would say they are not worth it. If we had stone hooked up, maybe the HG. But it is very late for Pyramids, and we have other needs for our hammers. Better to let an AI build it and see if we can then capture it.

I like Sleepless' idea of trading Philosophy in 1t rather than Civil Service to Churchill now, so I plan to trade for Philosophy this turn and give it to Churchill next turn for Calendar + Monotheism + Wealth.

I agree to keep an eye on our economy, and follow the build protocol/priority I described earlier in this post. Even if our Research drops to 00%, Courthouses and to a lesser extent Commerce building will bounce it back up to about 50% in the matter of a few turns, depending on how fast (maybe judicious use of Slavery) they can be built.

I agree to delay a try for The Pyramids or Hanging Gardens until we have Stone connected. Although, I agree that we can capture these Great Wonders if Churchill or Mao build them, if Gandhi or Roosevelt build them they will be somewhat out of reach (we may not want to DoW these two AIs just to capture these two Great Wonders). The big bonus if you lose the race to these two Great Wonders is we get 2.75 (Stone +100%, Bureaucracy +50%, Forge +25%) Wealth back for each base Hammer applied.

Sleepless said:
Just a hint/reminder Churchill has GLh and Collussus in London.

Yes, those Great Wonders we can be certain to get from Churchill, but they have an limited life, so we must act fast. It is a shame to put that shared War Dipl bonus with Churchill to waste by DoWing him, but we have to choose the quickest route to a Space Colony and I agree that may lie straight through Churchill's Land once we have concluded our business with De Gaulle.

Also, we may get Calendar from De Gaulle for Peace in a few turns.

I will continue and finish my TS (this time I'll keep my promise), starting in about an hour from now.

Sun Tzu Wu

Ozbenno · Nov 12, 2010

My other thought from looking at the save was the need for more workers (we have so many conflicting needs), there is so much fallout still around our own lands.

Some unhealthiness around so if there are any sources of health we can hook up or trade for we could look at that as well.

Sun Tzu Wu · Nov 12, 2010

Ozbenno said:
My other thought from looking at the save was the need for more workers (we have so many conflicting needs), there is so much fallout still around our own lands.

Some unhealthiness around so if there are any sources of health we can hook up or trade for we could look at that as well.

Both excellent points! I was planning to build several more Workers in Capital for a few turns at least. I will do my best to capture more Workers with the two Horse Archer and one Chariot. I will not risk loss of our Chariot WL C1 Medic3, even under the protection of 2 Horse Archers.

We will be connecting Deer soon; I don't think it has been connected yet. I will look for other sources of Health. Which reminds me, Granary needs to be prioritized when close to Healthiness Cap.

I will resume my TS in a few minutes from the time of this post.

Sun Tzu Wu

Sun Tzu Wu · Nov 12, 2010

Churchill insists on getting both Philosophy and Civil Service from us, so the best deal we can get is:

Feudalism + Calendar + Monotheism + 50W for Civil Service + Philosophy

Although I don't like giving him Civil Service, he may soon get it from either Gandhi or Roosevelt, so I'd be inclined to accept this deal. It is as good a deal or better than the one we got from Roosevelt last turn. This may be our last chance to get Feudalism in trade this early.

I'll check back in about 15 minutes before I end this turn, in case anyone comments. Please do, either in favor or against it. I could use a little support on this one though. EDIT: I'll probably go ahead on this one without a comment from others or concensus and take whatever heat I deserve, but I don't think its practical to wait 24 hours on each such big, possibly controversial trade. Still at least 15 minutes for comment though from the edit time stamp.

Thanks,

Sun Tzu Wu

haphazard1 · Nov 12, 2010

Sun Tzu Wu,

The deal sounds good to me, I would take it. Feudalism is an expensive tech, and it will open the possibility of Serfdom to boost our worker speed. It also opens the path to Guilds for knights, and also grocers for more cash.

Every tech we can get from the AIs boosts our overall tech pace. And we will want to go down the Guilds/Banking line soon enough.

Good luck!

haphazard1 · Nov 12, 2010

Sorry, one more thought.

Not a happy one, though.

Feudalism means Churchill will have protective longbows. :cry:

Much as I would like the Great Light House and Colossus, we may want to rethink war with Churchill. Especially if our relations with him are strong, maybe we should focus instead on Mao. And come back later with stronger units for Churchill, if we decide to attack him at all.

Anyway, I would definitely take the trade. We can worry about Churchill later.

Sun Tzu Wu · Nov 13, 2010

haphazard1 said:
The deal sounds good to me, I would take it. Feudalism is an expensive tech, and it will open the possibility of Serfdom to boost our worker speed. It also opens the path to Guilds for knights, and also grocers for more cash.

Every tech we can get from the AIs boosts our overall tech pace. And we will want to go down the Guilds/Banking line soon enough.

Thanks for being on-line and for your support on this trade!

I'm be making the Feudalism trade as outlined earlier and proceeding ahead in a matter of minutes.

Sun Tzu Wu

SGOTM 12 - ChokoMisfits

Deity

Deity

Bedrock of Knowledge

Deity

Fly Fly Away

Deity

Fly Fly Away

King

Fly Fly Away

King

Deity

Dancing Bear

Deity

Deity

Fly Fly Away

Deity

Deity

Dancing Bear

Dancing Bear

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