[BTS] SGOTM 13 - TNT thread

[justjohn]

OK. Played through the Settle on Corn strategy. Just to mix things up a bit, I decided to build LH before Settler (Keath already did the other way round). The screenshot is again from turn 71. Building LH before Settler postponed Orleans by 3 turns (Keath would found it turn 64, I founded it turn 67), but allowed me to get out WB3 in time for Orleans. This will make up for those 3 turns fast, not to mention that I've already built the LH in Paris. Still, this approach is clearly not as good as SPH, as can easily be seen from the screenshots. (SCorn leaves Paris with less production and 1 size smaller. Plus Paris has more turns of unhappiness from whipping compared to SPH.)

Unless people have more ideas, I'm voting for SPH and dima's last plan for that start. (I might have a small improvement, which I'll write down later.)

-jj-

[Keath]

Wow! This discussion is super! Very good analysis by everyone. It looks like we have some very knowledgeable players! I suggest we let everyone have a chance to try these saves or upload their own. Once we have a majority for one option, we can set up a roster and build the first city.

Summary (check last pages for turnset reports):
We have three city choices:
1. SIP - border pop t8 - Fishing t10 Worker in 13 at 3750bc - Abandon 10h->wb?
2. Corn - Sail -> Min in 11 - Worker in 8 - Complete worker or abandon?
3. PH - as Corn but one turn behind 3725bc - could use the mines.

Other tries could be to SIP and build settler (??!!) -> By t89 two cities Paris Pop5, Orleans pop1 - grow in 21 worker chopping granary. Two netted clams Alphabet 39 at 90%. Paris wb in 2. Both cities have lh. Research Min/BW (to get slavery while settler moves) Fish/Sail/Pottery/Writing/Alphabet.

Check the Progress and Results Page for first turns and check our post count. We have the third most posts. Well done, team!!

[justjohn]

An isolated start like this (hence no barbarians and prob no contact) + no random events = easy to plan many turns. No doubt all the experienced teams make such long plans too.

Attached is my "spreadsheet" for SPH (latest optimization). As you can see, it's not really a spreadsheet. It's just a plain text file, and all calculations have been done by hand. This is how I usually do it.

-jj-

[Keath]

Originally Posted by justjohn

An isolated start like this (hence no barbarians and prob no contact) + no random events = easy to plan many turns. No doubt all the experienced teams make such long plans too.

For our status as a 'new' team, this game and the isolation make it a perfect start. Instructive, but most important - we can plan accurately these opening moves -AND- this start helps even the playing field for us. As you say, all the teams do something similar. This is a great example, jj, way to go!

Attached is my "spreadsheet" for SPH (latest optimization). As you can see, it's not really a spreadsheet. It's just a plain text file, and all calculations have been done by hand. This is how I usually do it.
-jj-

Very nice! I am going to see if I can duplicate your results using this guide.

[AlanH]

You will have noticed that your team thread title still contains extra information in brackets. The reason for this is that the forum software will not allow thread titles to contain only upper case letters, so SGOTM 13 - TNT is verboten. I don't want to change the SGOTM 13 bit, as this conforms with the standard we try to adopt throughout the GOTM forums. So I can either change your team name to TnT, Tnt, tnt ...., or include some extra lower case text.

Your choice.

[Keath]

A question: "DS has given an AI the GLH which requires Sailing. If I am right, when one AI knows Sailing, the barbs can build galleys. Is that correct?"

@AlanH - Would -TNT- work?

Edit - OR *TNT* •TNT• ...TNT... •••TNT••• and so on. What do you think, team? Other ideas?

[dima42]

Originally Posted by Keath

A question: "DS has given an AI the GLH which requires Sailing. If I am right, when one AI knows Sailing, the barbs can build galleys. Is that correct?"

This is a hell of a good question, and one that definitely requires testing. If any worldbuilder expert can figure this out, please do! I think it could affect our plans dramatically. I'll take a look at this in about 30 hours if no one gets around to it by then.

[justjohn]

Originally Posted by Keath

A question: "DS has given an AI the GLH which requires Sailing. If I am right, when one AI knows Sailing, the barbs can build galleys. Is that correct?"

In World Builder you can give any city any Wonder without meeting any of the prerequisites. I doubt very much that he gave Sailing to that AI and probably not a normal Lighthouse, just the GLH.

As to when barb Galley appear, I'm not sure. And for all I know, there might be a different trigger for when barbs can build Galleys (in their cities) and when barb Galleys will appear at random.

EDIT: We could test this experimentally. I'll change my test save by giving an AI just the GLH. And then we can play through it until turn 75 (as in the latest SPH). If we don't encounter any barb Galley in say 10 test games, then we probably won't in SGOTM either. And then we could test it again giving GLH + Sailing to an AI, or something similar.

As to the team name, I'm quite sure AlanH did not mean "must contain some symbol different from a uppercase letter", but rather "must contain a lowercase letter". Evidence: The thread title already contains a dash and some square brackets.

-jj-

[dima42]

Originally Posted by justjohn

probably not a normal Lighthouse, just the GLH.

I believe this is incorrect. The AI in question has both a lighthouse and GLH, as per first page of the signup thread.

[justjohn]

Originally Posted by dima42

I believe this is incorrect. The AI in question has both a lighthouse and GLH, as per first page of the signup thread.

Ah, you're right. So it says in the game description. But it doesn't change the fact that you can easily give these things to an AI without giving them the tech. I just tested and verified that. (Well, I gave GLH to myself without giving me Sailing or even a Lighthouse. No problemo.)

[AlanH]

Originally Posted by Keath

A question: "DS has given an AI the GLH which requires Sailing. If I am right, when one AI knows Sailing, the barbs can build galleys. Is that correct?"

@AlanH - Would -TNT- work?

Edit - OR *TNT* •TNT• ...TNT... •••TNT••• and so on. What do you think, team? Other ideas?

Asterisks seem to work.

[justjohn]

Originally Posted by AlanH

Asterisks seem to work.

Are you sure? I would think it was because SGOTM is no longer written in uppercase (which I assume is just a mistake anyway).

[dima42]

From this link:

At what time will the game spawn barb Galleys?

* the era of barb animals must be over (NumCities >= 3/2*NumPlayers; GameTurns > Handicap.BarbarianCreationTurnsElapsed * GameSpeed.BarbPercent)
* the barbs must know Sailing


How do barbs acquire their techs?

* Their real research rate is almost guaranteed to be 0, since they aren't allowed to have a Palace (8 commerce) and thus suffer from high maintenance (but they don't lose units via STRIKE).
* So they merely receive the 1 free beaker everybody gets (BASE_RESEARCH_RATE) for their current research plus 3% (BARBARIAN_FREE_TECH_PERCENT) of the cost of a tech scaled by the percentage of players who know it for each technology each turn. Hence, if the majority of the players in the game knows Sailing, it won't be long until the first barb Galleys come visit your fishing grounds.

[AlanH]

Originally Posted by justjohn

Are you sure? I would think it was because SGOTM is no longer written in uppercase (which I assume is just a mistake anyway).

Whoops! Yes, it changed it to enforce the rule. Well spotted.\
[EDIT] How's that? 'TNT thread'

[justjohn]

Other suggestions:

TNT's thread
TNT - tread carefully!

I would like the last one, but I'm not sure if it's allowed to include text which obviously is not part of the name.

[Keath]

Certainly TNT thread is okay, but I put it to the team. Is there another way to put it?

TNT thread
TNT's thread
TNT - tread carefully!
TNT ***caution***

Other choices anyone?

[AlanH]

The last two are not options. Everyone will want a warning added, and I could end up making a new career out of editing titles

[fizbankovi]

god, sorry guys im way to tired from work to contribute... i realy am curius to have a start. As i said im happy with ANY of them.. we seem to have good alternatives.

btw how about :

"This is TNT!"

[Keath]

Some threads of interest:

Isolated starts: Isolated starts are among the most feared and difficult - be forewarned!

Game speed: Our game is at Epic Speed.

Barbs: From dima42 post - further testing ongoing.

WB in depth: If you want to get into scenario building.

SGOTM 02 CFR thread

Common acronyms:

Napoleon historical: Background.

If you want other threads listed here for convenience, post the links and I'll update.

[Keath]

Updated:

TNT thread
TNT's thread
This is TNT!

Other choices anyone?

@AlanH -- This will only matter for the name on the Progress and Results page, right?