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Old Dec 17, 2011, 05:51 AM   #121
Spoonwood
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I can change my mind Stoertebeker. Also, the point of a map with a very high domination limit would come as to beat Moonsinger's game, but to have a better map, with a better start.

1. I think my first war started 5 turns before 250 AD, which puts it at 150 AD, as the MapStat screenshot suggests.

2. I think I've used the disconnecting thing to start every war in this game.

3. Not sure when I first used it the disconnecting thing, but I think a little before 1000 BC.

4. I had initially set research to go for a 50 turn on Alphabet. But, I managed to trade Masonry away for Alphabet before finishing it. All other techs I got from the AIs.

6. Sorry, but no.

7. No, I didn't. Fomenting wars between the AIs before you attack anyone would require you to stand in a state of war with them. So, either you don't get back at peace with some AI, you stay at war with them, or you can't re-negotiate the peace treaty (or you have to wait 20 turns to do this). None of those options seem desireable, so I didn't foment AI-AI wars.

8. The fewer opponents you have, the more territory you can grab earlier for a higher score earlier. That's part of the reason most people play with 8. I just don't want to do that, because I think it'll make the disconnect-reconnect less effective, and keeping multiple tribes around for war happiness becomes a trickier proposition. Maybe you only need 2 though... and 2 out of 8 tribes lands razed instead of captured probably doesn't affect anything.
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Old Dec 17, 2011, 08:45 AM   #122
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I can change my mind Stoertebeker.
Of course you can - i even appreciate that. But not, if that means to abandon this interesting game and report.

Thanks for the answers. So basically, the timing of your conquest was quite similar to that of Moonsingers. You might even reach domination at the same time.

Quote:
Maybe you only need 2 though... and 2 out of 8 tribes lands razed instead of captured probably doesn't affect anything.
Ah, of course. I forgot that it's no good idea to be at war with a nation which makes up a part of your own population. Now I understand you.
Actually: How exactly does war happyness work? Does it make 25% of the pops happy so that you're guaranteed of total happiness with 4 wars?
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Old Dec 17, 2011, 05:19 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Stoe
So basically, the timing of your conquest was quite similar to that of Moonsingers. You might even reach domination at the same time.
No, check her game with CrPViewer. I don't know the specifics of war happyness.

On another note, after thinking about Moonsinger's notes, since I have all the AIs declaring on me, it might work out well to produce some explorers from corrupt towns, have them ready to pillage out resources of the target AI right before the war starts and then do so, and then disband the explorers. I don't like pillaging other squares in general, but that might just work out well enough to prove worth it... and it seems cheaper than using armies for such a purpose.
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Old Dec 17, 2011, 09:45 PM   #124
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Actually: How exactly does war happyness work? Does it make 25% of the pops happy so that you're guaranteed of total happiness with 4 wars?
See here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=274524
Especially post 6.


I knew this would be of interest - one day.
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Old Dec 18, 2011, 06:24 AM   #125
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Thanks Lord Emsworth!
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Old Dec 18, 2011, 07:08 AM   #126
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Hmmm... the 4578 (that's the domination limit) start looked like this initially:

After wandering north for 5 or so, I found a grassland wheat, and planted in 3750 BC. My worker wasn't in the right spot, but I managed to irrigate the wheat just in time for 5 food per turn. And I found a grassland cow for my second city. This time I plan to do city calculations as I go along.
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Old Dec 18, 2011, 08:44 AM   #127
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Phew. Losing 5 turns in the very beginning - that hurts. I've done some calculations: 5 turns earlier domination will net to about 1000 points in endscore. That's roughly the amount that you can gain by 50 more points of domination limit. So this one is worth a try.

12 opponents? Goodie huts off? I hope that you're not all alone on an island. Good luck!
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Old Dec 18, 2011, 12:13 PM   #128
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Is it still Deity?
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Old Dec 18, 2011, 05:44 PM   #129
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Is it still Deity?
The game before this was Sid, and so is this one.
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Old Dec 18, 2011, 06:41 PM   #130
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Phew. Losing 5 turns in the very beginning - that hurts. I've done some calculations: 5 turns earlier domination will net to about 1000 points in endscore. That's roughly the amount that you can gain by 50 more points of domination limit. So this one is worth a try.

12 opponents? Goodie huts off? I hope that you're not all alone on an island. Good luck!
I don't think I necessarily lost 5 turns towards the domination limit. Though, those numbers might indicate why I won't put in banks first this game (if it goes well enough). Also, I definitely will do better by having moved as I did vs. settling in place on this map. That's all that I can control... unless I find another map with about as high a domination limit or higher. In 3 nights, I think, of running so far the second highest domination limit came at 4556, but I'd have to move around there also to find 5 fpt, and I have a stack of hills and mountains in the initial position. The next highest comes in at 4526 with a lake and a fish on the lake. I do have 3 high food starts (one wheat start, a grassland cow start, and another grassland cow start) with 4519 as the domination limit for the best of those.
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Old Dec 18, 2011, 10:11 PM   #131
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In 1625 I learned Alphabet, swapped some barracks pre-builds to curraghs (without wasting any shields), and started on Writing. I think I saw a sliver of a glimpse of Sumerian borders.

1600 BC-first curragh produced in the west.

1550 BC-second curragh produced in the east. I meet Sumeria. They lack Alphabet, and I make a deal.
1525 BC-third curragh out.

1500 BC-I spot a Byzantines settler/spear pair in the east, and see green borders in the west. The Byzantines already have Writing, and have extra Incence and Furs.

1475 BC-4th curragh out. The Byzantines start MoM and the Great Lighthouse. I also meet Persia.

1450 BC-Everyone I know has Writing.

1425 BC-I've met Carthage via a curragh... they have one sneaking around my home land. They also have extra Wines and Silks at present.

1375 BC-Carthage starts Great Wall. In the interturn Gilgamesh builds an Embassy in my capital.

I soon discover I'm alone on the island, and in 925 I basically decide I don't like this map.
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Old Dec 20, 2011, 04:31 PM   #132
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After trying two or three of the 4500+ maps and finding myself alone on my home island, I've found this decent 4519 map.


Persia has the Pyramids and they also lie next to me. The only problem comes as that Sumeria and Korea have Astronomy, and Music Theory, and the cash on this map. I can't trade with them right now, because of trading route runs through the Carthaginian empire. That said, I think that soon enough I will have the ability to trade with them, and I'll get a bunch of cash too. Well, I do have a lot of tundra near my capital, but oh well. Also, it looks like I have a bunch of tribes on my home continent, though I'm not quite sure how this map looks yet.

Grrr... and I didn't manage to capture Carthage this turn, though I did kill a lot of their units. When the war started after capturing Hadrementum, I attacked Hippo a little too early, gassed my army doing so, and then lost Hadrementum 2 turns after capturing it.

Last edited by Spoonwood; Jul 29, 2012 at 09:06 PM.
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Old Dec 20, 2011, 05:54 PM   #133
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10 AD-Korea and Sumeria now have Banking also. Greece has Music Theory now. After bombarding them, I defeat two Numidian Mercernaries in Carthage and take control of it. I have a slew of horseman waiting for upgrades, but I plan to wait until I have my trade routes with Sumeria and Korea up.

30 AD-Sumeria makes peace with Carthage. Even though it might come as risky to not have them in a MA against Carthage, I'm not going to sign them back in, as I can now trade for some of their goods. Germany and Greece have Banking now. After picking up Astronomy from Sumeria in a Wines deal, I can now trade with Korea. So, scratch that. I will sign Sumeria back in to the war. Scratch that. I won't sign Sumeria in, at least not this turn. Korea and Sumeria have a ridiculous amount of gpt. Scratch that, I sign Sumeria back into the war. No trade routes got disrupted, so that worked out well! I try to recapture Hippo which had flipped, and lose a bunch of units in the process. I started attacking with 2/4 knights and muskets across a river even, it didn't work and proved a bad call. Actually, that's definitely not good, since Persia can now claim it, but since I have wines coming from Sumeria now, I have some consolation. I think I throw aroun 13 knights (maybe 9-10) at Rusicade, but I don't capture it. I also do a slew of upgrades. Cities with 30 shields I still have on horse-knights. I have few 20 shield cities on spear-muskets. I've started on banks in other cities.
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Old Dec 20, 2011, 09:56 PM   #134
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50 AD I capture Rusicade. I checked, and the problem came as that it lied on a hill. I also capture Theveste.

70 AD-I fail to capture Utica, even though I had a good amount of knights attack it. I do capture Oea, even though I think I had a 4/4 knight lose to a 1/4 numidian merc. and I know I lost a 4/4 javelin thrower to a 1/4 longbow.

90 AD-I again fail to capture Utica. Now Persia might capture it.

110 AD-Carthage flips. Korea and Greece know both Democracy and Metallurgy. Though I fail to capture Carthage back, I do get an MGL at Utica, and capture it.

130 AD-Sumerians start Magellan's on the 110-130 inter-turn. Sumeria, Greece, and Korea all have Navigation. I manage to re-capture Carthage (I was close to losing it to Persia)! I can reach the cores of Persia, Sumeria, Korea, Germany, the Iroquois, and the Ottomans all by land. Here's some of my core, with the world map:



Babylon and Greece lie on another continent. The Byzantines lie on an island, and so does Russia.

Unfortunately, Persia (Perselopis has both Sun Tzu's and the Pyramids) has a lot of island sites:



I'm not quite sure if I should attack Sumeria to the north next where my knights have trotted to, or Persia who has the Pyramids. Persia has all those island sites, and Sumeria has some nice cash flowing to me:



Note, I also have gpt going to them, as when I couldn't acquire a luxury from them, I bought a bunch of their cash.

I also think Persia has a lot more units. Fortunately, Persia doesn't know Astronomy, Democracy, or Chemistry yet... so maybe I can attack Sumeria next, and hope that I can get techs from other AIs and leave Persia in the middle ages, facing them with calvary and calvary armies.
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Old Dec 21, 2011, 06:30 PM   #135
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Thinking more on this game, the next step really comes as to attack Persia, so I can keep on getting money from Sumeria. I shouldn't have started on banks, except in a few coastal spots yet, so I have more military to take them on. I might change some of those bank builds to knights.
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Old Dec 21, 2011, 07:16 PM   #136
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How is your unit support now? How will you make Persia declare on you?
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Old Dec 21, 2011, 08:23 PM   #137
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How is your unit support now? How will you make Persia declare on you?
I currently have 256 gpt in unit support. My tundra towns have put out settlers, and trebuchets. I have 4 settlers, 55 workers, 1 explorer, 5 warriors, 7 horseman (for upgrading), 26 muskets, 4 galleys, 1 army, 50 (native) trebuchets which will soon turn into cannons, 1 curragh, and 79 knights. I have 70% luxuries going right now. This will drop once I finish off Carthage... which will take a bit since they have some cities in some odd spots. Also, I have only 7 of the luxuries, as no one even had 1 source of ivory for them until quite recently, because of what looks like some early razing by someone.

I want to get my military numbers up to go at Persia (the only other alternative seems to move in the other direction and fight Germany, but this would take a while just in terms of movement), so I've decided to cash rush some banks... which I think I lose some money by doing this overall, but at least I'll get units in faster. I've put 002 on a Palace pre-build for one of the three military wonders. To get Persia to declare on me, I plan on gifting them my Dye sources.

Last edited by Spoonwood; Dec 21, 2011 at 08:26 PM.
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Old Dec 21, 2011, 09:39 PM   #138
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How did you deal with those number of units before reconnect-disconnect? Where you able to trade for luxes very early? I hope you get Leo's, since I take it - with some many veteran units - you've already built barracks in most of your cities? I wonder, with all theese gams on Deity and Sid - have you gotten some sort of knowledge as to how many units you need before going on a first war? For exampel, that you need 30 knights and 15 trebuchets to take 6 AI Sid cities on the turn knights are available. When do you know you have enough units? The worst thing for me is if the invasion stalls and due to WW, more units are difficult to build.
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Old Dec 21, 2011, 10:12 PM   #139
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Here's a screenshot of what I think indicates happened with the ivory:



The Iroquois and the German's warred with each other early on.

As an aside, I'll note that I checked both Moonsinger's #3 game and Kuningas's #2 game and noted that both of them built Longevity (for those that don't know, there's someone's analysis around here somewhere that shows that starvation or some strange effect of Longevity actually lowers score over the long term). Moonsinger's #1 game didn't build Longevity. So, that implies that I may well have (and might still do so) break 80k, if not also get the #2 spot on the other map I was playing, since Longevity actually decreases score.

130 AD-Decide on dropping luxuries to 50%, for more cash. It doesn't keep everyone happy, but oh well. I have 3525 in my treasury at the end of the turn, and netting 650 gpt.

150 AD-Persia has iron available again. That would work better than Dyes later on. I've had a few options from which I can purchase saltpeter from. I think I used Persia for a little bit, and then the Iroquois. But, since I have gpt going to Sumeria, and I don't want to create free money, and since they've handsomely provided me with some cash, I'll purchase it from them from now on.

170 AD-Carthage flips on the interturn, as does Theveste. I recapture both cities. Theveste with the army, for my first army victory. The pre-build swaps to the Heroic Epic. I capture Leptis Minor, and Citra. This leaves the Carthaginians looking like this:



Persia, unfortunately, has a huge stack out (somewhere between 2-3 times the number of units you can see here) around Carthage (the city):



I've actually reached "average" to Germany.

190 AD-In the interturn, Carthage lands two longbows outside Utica, which quickly get pummeled by Persian knights. Lagash of Sumeria completes Cope's.
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Old Dec 21, 2011, 10:43 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by AnthonyIII
How did you deal with those number of units before reconnect-disconnect?
I'm not clear what you mean here. How did I produce that number of units? Well, I've had disconnect-reconnect going basically the whole time. A few turns I didn't upgrade the horses, but I still produced horseman instead of knights.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyIII
Where you able to trade for luxes very early?
Not especially, no.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyIII
I hope you get Leo's, since I take it - with some many veteran units - you've already built barracks in most of your cities?
I've had Leo's since 10 AD except for 1 or 2 turns when Carthage flipped
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoonwood
After bombarding them, I defeat two Numidian Mercernaries in Carthage and take control of it.
.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyIII
I wonder, with all theese gams on Deity and Sid - have you gotten some sort of knowledge as to how many units you need before going on a first war?
If you keep on training horse-knights you really only need enough knights to capture one city on Sid. As I keep on learning, you really want overwhelming force when you attack. So probably something like 12-15 knights for that first city... if they've fought a war with someone else (you might want to investigate your first target), and maybe 10 or so trebuchets (I always like to put these out in cities under 10 shields, and cities not quite at 10 shields... you'd want to have some of these anyways before starting a war)... at least if convenient (I didn't do this in my China Large Conquest game). I also try and trigger my GA on the first turn of the war (in the current game I failed at this, and didn't succeed with a javelin thrower until 3 or so turns after the war had started). That comes as provided that you have disconnect-reconnect going on producing produce horse-knights in cities with 10-19 shields per turn, other AIs border your first target, they aren't the strongest on the planet (try to pick the weakest neighbor first), you sign military alliances with at least their neighbors, if not everyone else on the planet also to try and move the target AI's units around in silly patterns instead of coming at you (this might not work). Basically, if you produce knights at the speed of horses in your GA, you'll have little problem in quickly producing enough units to pulverize your first (relatively weak) target. Positioning your units provides more of a challenge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyIII
For exampel, that you need 30 knights and 15 trebuchets to take 6 AI Sid cities on the turn knights are available.
5 knights per city seems rather low. 30 well-positioned knights might take out 3 cities. At Sid, you want to anticipate at least 3 of the targets strongest defenders in each city. They might also have an artillery unit or two there, and some offensive units like a longbow which will fire back at you. Hopefully most of your knights either retreat or win, thought losses will occur.

As long as you have enough cash (via the AIs via disconnecting-reconnecting around your capital or at your borders), you have a warrior/other unit to pillage your iron/saltpeter source every turn, you have enough workers to rehook that iron/saltpeter, producing enough units, at least once you learn this, becomes a problem only for facing the toughest of the AIs.

Edit: My first attack in my China (80% pangea) Large Sid Conquest game came in 670 BC. I underestimated the number of units I needed to take Thermopylae, and Sumeria then razed it. I don't have a save from then exactly, but I do have a save from 750 BC, where I trained a bunch of spear-pikes, I think in the late ancient age/early middle age, as I don't think I had horses online, or didn't have 10 shields per turn or something:
Attached Files
File Type: sav Spoonwood of the Chinese, 750 BC.SAV (232.7 KB, 6 views)

Last edited by Spoonwood; Dec 21, 2011 at 10:56 PM.
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