Challenge-VI-03

[bcool]

Re: Asoka
The fast workers are definitely a strong unit on a rainforest map. And his traits are not horrible.

Two things:
1) Is the UU good enough to avoid other leaders with better traits and perhaps better UB?

I think Peter with Philosophical and Expansive a very nice combo for a rainforest map as well. I think the combination of Philosophical and Expansive is ideal for a rainforest map space game. And his UB is very nice but comes quite late depending on your tech path. His UU is unlikely to help.
I'll leave the discussion of Philosophical for later. Expansive is a strong trait since it lets you build cheaper workers and 1/2 cost granaries has a very nice effect early on. And with all the jungles the +2 starting health makes a difference sometimes early on and certainly later as you grow your cities to large sizes. I think Expansive is one of the best traits for a rainforest map.

2) Is Organized better than Philosophical?
If you insist on using an Indian leader which is better? Asoka with organized or Gandhi with philosophical?

I haven't taken a close look at how significant civic costs are for the entire game of a space game. I don't have a good idea but it probably won't save you more than 200 gold per turn near the end of the game. Half price courthouses is nice for a space game because you will build or whip a courthouse in all of your cities. Half price factories is also nice because you will likely build a factory in all of your cities as well.
So you save ~40 hammers per city for half price courthouses, and save ~ 82 hammers per city for half price factories, and of course you get their benefit a few turns earlier and/or save a pop or 2 when you whip them, which could be significant.

Philosophical
I don't know how many more great people it actually turns out to be. Even if it is 2 extra great people the advantage might not be that simple. For example a philosophical leader will get its first great scientist in at least 1/2 the time as a non-philosophical leader. Which means you have an academy for an extra ~6 turns on quick speed. You will be able to accumulate great people faster to bulb out to biology faster. It will be easier (probably) to get a great engineer for mining inc. What is getting biology 10 turns faster worth? quite a bit depending on your empire size of course and how well you have set up a national park city.
The extra 2 great people might mean you get another golden age vs not.

Plus you save ~60 hammers per city you build a university and get their benefits and Oxford's benefits a little bit faster.

I'm pretty sure philosophical is significantly better than organized for quick game going for space on a rainforest map.

[shulec]

Asoka does well on this map. I played a game and was 2-3 turns behind bcool. I didn't have barbs on. I thought I had superb fog busting and didn't even notice.

Here is the info on the game I played.

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game...&entryID=24464

Spoiler:

[Tachywaxon]

Originally Posted by bcool

I think Peter with Philosophical and Expansive a very nice combo for a rainforest map as well. I think the combination of Philosophical and Expansive is ideal for a rainforest map space game.

I'm not sure I wish to be Peter given I want him as a PA partner. I think he is one of the best for that purpose and space partnership. Even though he is annoying how he deals the spaceship parts (and triggering anarchy at the worst moments), the tech boost from such a fine techer (5 out of 10) like him isn't to be refused. Another spec is his proclivity towards high population (Mao Zegong has the highest rating point of 5 while Peter has 2 out of 10), which is probably a hard part to control, while changing at the right moment many improvements (like farms he likes so much) at once with an army of workers into workshops and the likes is easier to speed up spaceship's components.
Why it may be hard to control pop, perhaps he may use excedent pops for specialists, slowing down pop growth rate.

Also, the finesse to work with Peter is also his bureaucratic love for diplo boost AND super production capital without risk he swaps at the wrong moment. Indeed, in PA, we cannot influence easilu civic changes.

Peter is also an easy leader to PA given he only needs PLEASED stance to trigger the alliance.
Furthermore, he backstabs at pleased, quite nice to sum up the hard ~40 turns for PA on quick speed.

All in all, Peter is a prime choice for partnership and I am not sure to take him as leader to play.

There is indeed another leader who shares many characteristics as Peter like condition stance of PLEASED and backstabber at pleased (easy sharing war against the AI's we dislike like Shaka, Charlemagne) : Qin. But he is not that nice as tech trader as much as techer. Moreover, he may hinder our plans for wonders.

There is a minus with PA (somehow), there is a significant risk to lose the GE from Fusion tech; the GPeople is random provided between the partners.
Taking the GMerchant from Economics before signing the pact is advisable. There is also another risk if we don't have a saved GEngineer for the corporation; our partner may take the corporation and this will takes eternity before it arrives to your cities. I remember I delayed a lot the PA in my space G-Major (Global Highlands and Pacal II) because I was in constant fear to lose the wonder.

[Tachywaxon]

Originally Posted by bcool

I'll leave the discussion of Philosophical for later. Expansive is a strong trait since it lets you build cheaper workers and 1/2 cost granaries has a very nice effect early on. And with all the jungles the +2 starting health makes a difference sometimes early on and certainly later as you grow your cities to large sizes. I think Expansive is one of the best traits for a rainforest map.

Indeed, the cheaper workers mean more workers to make up the power of indian UU.
Yes, I notice rainforest is high on food, but not fantastic on health. We miss fish, clam, crab, often wheat (rare IIRC) and some other resources.
Health seems a prime concern on this map although it doesn't have direct consequences as unhappiness (loss of food and random destruction of buildings), but it weakens the power of special food at some point.

Like boreal where forests make the unbalance of health, teeming food on rainforest make this up.

There was another alternatice that cropped up in my mind in a situation where Shaka or Charlie where available leaders to make up the problem of health: environmentalism (+6 or +8 ). Boosted windmill is also nice bonus. Production is rarely a problem on quick speed, but tech rate makes a change in dates. 25 % penalty with corporation somehow (the exact formula may be a bit more complex) neutralized by the special UU. Of course, the difference between free market and environmentalism is 50 %, which nets with a loss, but a smoother one than one civ without those UU. And Org attribute doesn't help in regards to city maintenance. Only food corp may influence the cost, but this is a "collateral" consequence of willing high pop for many specialists.

Originally Posted by bcool

2) Is Organized better than Philosophical?
If you insist on using an Indian leader which is better? Asoka with organized or Gandhi with philosophical?

That is a shame Gandhi is taken, so if we want to get profit of indian UU, we have to deal with Asoka.

Originally Posted by bcool

I haven't taken a close look at how significant civic costs are for the entire game of a space game. I don't have a good idea but it probably won't save you more than 200 gold per turn near the end of the game. Half price courthouses is nice for a space game because you will build or whip a courthouse in all of your cities. Half price factories is also nice because you will likely build a factory in all of your cities as well.
So you save ~40 hammers per city for half price courthouses, and save ~ 82 hammers per city for half price factories, and of course you get their benefit a few turns earlier and/or save a pop or 2 when you whip them, which could be significant.

Philosophical
I don't know how many more great people it actually turns out to be. Even if it is 2 extra great people the advantage might not be that simple. For example a philosophical leader will get its first great scientist in at least 1/2 the time as a non-philosophical leader. Which means you have an academy for an extra ~6 turns on quick speed. You will be able to accumulate great people faster to bulb out to biology faster. It will be easier (probably) to get a great engineer for mining inc. What is getting biology 10 turns faster worth? quite a bit depending on your empire size of course and how well you have set up a national park city.
The extra 2 great people might mean you get another golden age vs not.

Plus you save ~60 hammers per city you build a university and get their benefits and Oxford's benefits a little bit faster.

I'm pretty sure philosophical is significantly better than organized for quick game going for space on a rainforest map.

Hmm, there is so many factors to mull over on space victs. I'll see that later...

Thanks for the nice discussion. I really need to improve my space colony ability.

[Tachywaxon]

Originally Posted by shulec

Asoka does well on this map. I played a game and was 2-3 turns behind bcool. I didn't have barbs on. I thought I had superb fog busting and didn't even notice.

Here is the info on the game I played.

http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/game...&entryID=24464

Spoiler:

Hmmm. that is encouraging. Asoka is after all a strong choice (his UU of course).
You plan to do better next shot?

[Kaitzilla]

Got a really good finish date on this one. I'll cross my fingers it gets accepted.

Rolled out with Darius and peacefully expanded. Didn't go to war until AD times.
I included Peter, Wang Kon, and Mansa for tech trading opportunities. Mansa was a Monster whom I rode until Railroads!

It took me around 800 years to complete Oxford. I purposely avoided vassals for maximum land even though I had it enabled for some reason.



The +2 health unique grocery is very nice. The National Park is also very nice if your GP Farm has some spare jungle lying around. Corporations seem slow to spread and expensive on this one, so I went state property.

[Kaitzilla]

Originally Posted by Tachywaxon

That is a shame Gandhi is taken, so if we want to get profit of indian UU, we have to deal with Asoka.

I really wanted Ghandi this game, but he was taken by the computer. In my game he fought off 3 civs successfully for many many centuries before becoming the vassal of the Ethiopians.

[bcool]

How good? I decided to play Peter just to see if I was right. If it is accepted I got a 1735 A.D. win with him with corporations. Railroads first to speed up the spread, they do come a bit late but I got 20+ hammers and 20+ food with them in the end.

I was wrong about his UU, it came in handy for quick conquest.

[Kaitzilla]

Originally Posted by bcool

How good? I decided to play Peter just to see if I was right. If it is accepted I got a 1735 A.D. win with him with corporations. Railroads first to speed up the spread, they do come a bit late but I got 20+ hammers and 20+ food with them in the end.

I was wrong about his UU, it came in handy for quick conquest.

1675AD

I had quite the world war after turning down 3 voluntary vassals on the same turn. Zara took them all and brought the whole world in against me. Unlike real warmongers, his ragtag band of Ghandi, Mansa, and Wang Kon took turns cowering in their cities, suiciding Rambo marines across rivers in forests, and having whole stacks of siege attacking the lone cannon next to a vulnerable city.

I was also very pleased with the super early Oracle of Currency and beelining Alphabet. With 10 opponents, I was WFYHBTA with a few civs before I even met Mansa. I think that trades you perform before you meet a civ don't count towards WFYHBTA limit, which is very nice to exploit on quick speed (yes i'll trade you for mysticism and archery )



Ya, I can see Kossaks being very good on this. Any thoughts on Cataphracts, which come a little earlier?

Reaching the dom limit as early as possible really seems to be the way to go. Each civ starts with a huge chunk of the surrounding jungle cleared, so 10 opponents if great. I used Liberalism to grab Steam Power for 50% faster workers and levees. I also sent one worker to chop each jungle for maximum efficiency.

[bcool]

To answer Tachy's question about the number of great people generated with the philosophical trait...

Using Peter I got 31 great people by the end (although 4 came after I launched the ship or too late to be useful)

Using Monty I got 25 great people with at least 2 coming too late to be useful.

So in the end philosophical got me ~6 more great people.

[shulec]

Originally Posted by bcool

To answer Tachy's question about the number of great people generated with the philosophical trait...

Using Peter I got 31 great people by the end (although 4 came after I launched the ship or too late to be useful)

Using Monty I got 25 great people with at least 2 coming too late to be useful.

So in the end philosophical got me ~6 more great people.

It would be interesting to see how many you got before 1000 AD. They are definitely less valuable later in the game.

[bcool]

I took a look at my 1000 AD saves and I had 11 great people with peter and only 5 with monty.

The comparison isn't perfect of course, but you would expect the philosophical leader to get 10 corrected see below 7 great people in the same time it took a regular leader 5 assuming there isn't a very early National Epic build or an earlier adoption of pacifism.

When pacifism is adopted and when the National Epic is built is key. Because they help reduce the benefit a philosophical leader has over a non-philosophical leader. For example a philosophical leader running pacifism in his/her national epic city is producing at 4 times the normal rate. A non philosophical leader is producing at 3 times the normal rate.
That is significantly less advantageous when you compare them without other bonuses (i.e. a philosophical leader produces at 2 times the rate a non-philosophical leader does)

A philosophical leader might produce more great people in non-NE cities especially if they are using corporations, but the advantage is definitely reduced if you are running pacifism.

[Sun Tzu Wu]

Philosophical trait gains one 7 Great People versus 5 Great People with a non-Philosophical leader, assuming early game eras with no other GPPpt modifiers. Remember that each successive Great Person costs more GPPs than the one before it; 100, 200, 300, 400, 500, 600, 700, 800, 900, 1000, 1200, ... at normal speed for simplicity.

For example, non-Philosophical earns 1500 GPPs while Philosophical earns 3000 GPPs, but the extra 1500 gains one 600 GPPs and 700 GPPs Great People plus 200 GPPs remainder; thus 5 versus 7 GPs for Non-Philosophical versus Philosophical respectively.

Sun Tzu Wu

[bcool]

You of course are correct. I made a mistake.

The numbers belie the experience however. With a philosophical leader if you emphasize production then you can get significantly more great people early. The same investment in in a non-philosophical leader would likely be a poor investment of resources.

I believe it is also easier to get early great people in non-NE cities with the philosophical trait. It doesn't sacrifice as much to run 2 scientists for 10 turns instead of 20 (or whatever). So while what STZ suggest is true by the numbers a philosophical leader would get 7 in the time it would take a non-philosophical leader 5, I believe maximizing the philosophical trait early pays off significantly more than the numbers suggest.

Also the maximize rate of gp production is somewhat limited in the beginning of the game if you not running caste system, so the philosophical trait makes staying in slavery much more attractive which has large dividends if used efficiently.

[shulec]

After a quite a few openings for this one, I really liked the pig/deer/luxury starting site and going hunting=>AH=>writing=>alpha. With 10 AI you can really take hold of a strong early tech lead. If you use an AI starting with hunting, this will go even more quickly.

[Tachywaxon]

Originally Posted by shulec

After a quite a few openings for this one, I really liked the pig/deer/luxury starting site and going hunting=>AH=>writing=>alpha. With 10 AI you can really take hold of a strong early tech lead. If you use an AI starting with hunting, this will go even more quickly.

Did you get a lucky strike in a particular game or simply some theory?


My personal game with Asoka got a prolonged hold given all the bad lucks I had:
-Losing my chance to convert Zara (I very knew he was after AP) to Hinduism (my predominant religion) because I said to myself, I will convert him one turn later to keep the war a bit longer (Great Wall milking)
-Lost my super GG healer in a defense war where he wasn't supposed to be.
-Charlie was my target and one turn later he had longbows (80 AD), that is friggin' early.
-Almost lost Liberalism at ~900 AD
-And other frustrating stuff like losing Music, etc. etc.

BUT the lands are marvellously lush with food and I have 17 cities, controlling almost all wonders and two weak vassals (Mansa and Charlie) before 800 AD. Oh and I killed Peter...*sob*...with chariots. He was supposed to be my partner...

And I somewhat know I won't be competitive. I really didn't like lib for Astro.

[shulec]

Originally Posted by Tachywaxon

Did you get a lucky strike in a particular game or simply some theory?

Just some theory. I was playing with Asoka and started with mining. The opening I discussed made it easy to get access to strategic resources for barb protection. BW doesn't have to be researched immediately since the few forests are better for early hammers and post-mathematics chops. Whipping doesn't start immediately either. This also gets you IW relatively quickly from the AI so you can chop jungle.

This opening made it easy for me to trade for Polythieism or meditation and gave an easy route to CoL. It also made it easy to Oracle civil service.

[Tachywaxon]

Originally Posted by shulec

Just some theory. I was playing with Asoka and started with mining. The opening I discussed made it easy to get access to strategic resources for barb protection. BW doesn't have to be researched immediately since the few forests are better for early hammers and post-mathematics chops. Whipping doesn't start immediately either. This also gets you IW relatively quickly from the AI so you can chop jungle.

This opening made it easy for me to trade for Polythieism or meditation and gave an easy route to CoL. It also made it easy to Oracle civil service.

How did you get so easily Polytheism/Meditation from the AI. It doesn't occur all the time that many AI's get those simultaneously to lift the tech monopoly. As for Mansa, he doesn't get those all the time. Somehow, with Asoka, it seems better go straight Poly and stunt many AI's going for Oracle. In addition, Charlie is often the one for Buddism and doesn't an obsession for wonders.

With a couple of gems on flat land, you can grow on them. Still, perhaps it is better to get at least one food tech to get a settler very soon. This is what I did in the suspended attempt I mentioned.

[shulec]

Originally Posted by Tachywaxon

How did you get so easily Polytheism/Meditation from the AI. It doesn't occur all the time that many AI's get those simultaneously to lift the tech monopoly.

10 AI, with Mansa Musa. It is best if you get a centrally located starting position to meet as many AI asap. I usually get polytheism from Mansa Musa if most games. I am not sure for where I got it in my most recent game.

Your game sound good. I ran a half-assed war all game. I overdid the wonders a bit and never fully committed to the war.

Looking at my game log, I got Polytheism on turn 40, one turn after getting Mathematics.