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Old Jan 11, 2012, 09:24 AM   #81
Mardoc
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On a totally unrelated note, I'm not a fan of the Amurite city names. Any thoughts on what they ought to be instead? To throw out an idea to get us started: Names of Magic Tricks

Edit: Or we could name them all after pindicator to test the pindicator = razed theory

Last edited by Mardoc; Jan 11, 2012 at 09:40 AM.
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Old Jan 11, 2012, 09:40 AM   #82
Ilios
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On a totally unrelated note, I'm not a fan of the Amurite city names. Any thoughts on what they ought to be instead? To throw out an idea to get us started: Names of Magic Tricks
Approved!
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Old Jan 11, 2012, 10:46 AM   #83
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Nice 1t Elder Council, Darrell! I'll play the save in something like 3 hours or so.

What do we tech after education? If I remember correctly, and EitB hasn't changed anything, we need either hunting or mining for archery (we don't need BW in base ffh). So archery would be a possibility.

If we want to develop economically a bit more before gunning to bowyers, we could go festivals, which is a nice, cheap tech. Archery would be helpful either way, since it boosts chops and allows lumbermills. Hunting would give another discount to Archery, another hapiness and the all important hawks.

If there was a way to get a GEng, we could bulb bowyers (very high priority for a GEng), but I don't see how we could do it besdies rushing Beeri and hoping for a settled Golden Hammer or a RoK shrine. We could accumulate 100g and cross our fingers too . Anyway, if Beeri already did one of those expected behaviours, rushing him with axes could be a nice way to get a shortcut to bowyers. But that would mean no academy, since the GPP we get from those 2 sources will take a lot of turns to get the secong GP (201 points needed).

I guess city number 3 should work another farm until size 3, then work the gold? Or should I start working it on size 2? Which do you guys prefer? (I promise not to ask all the micro questions to everyone - that's just an interesting discussion, in my opinion).
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Old Jan 11, 2012, 10:52 AM   #84
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Festivals is my vote for the next tech. As Ilios reminds me every five seconds, Hunting is much cheaper in EitB, so it might make sense to get the double discount for Archery given we have Copper and Ivory. There is also Fur to the SE but its not something I see us settling.

Darrell

P.S. Be sure to check each turn for OB as an option, especially with Beeri!
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Old Jan 11, 2012, 10:53 AM   #85
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Approved!
+1.

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Old Jan 11, 2012, 11:02 AM   #86
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Since Hunting is cheaper, wouldn't it make sense to go hunting before festivals?

Every benefit we can get from festivals depend on "wasting" a lot of hammers (markets and carnivals, but maybe I'm forgetting something) and I don't think we are ready for it right now. Maybe I'm in too much of a MP mindset (haven't played SP in a long time) in thinking that workers and settlers are a better use of our production right now.

Hunting, on the other hand, would at least give us a quick happy boost with the already settled ivory. And if we have time for building a... well, building, I think a Hunting Lodge would be better then a market or carnival. That's how much I like hawks...
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Old Jan 11, 2012, 11:36 AM   #87
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Science

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Since Hunting is cheaper, wouldn't it make sense to go hunting before festivals?

Every benefit we can get from festivals depend on "wasting" a lot of hammers (markets and carnivals, but maybe I'm forgetting something) and I don't think we are ready for it right now. Maybe I'm in too much of a MP mindset (haven't played SP in a long time) in thinking that workers and settlers are a better use of our production right now.

Hunting, on the other hand, would at least give us a quick happy boost with the already settled ivory. And if we have time for building a... well, building, I think a Hunting Lodge would be better then a market or carnival. That's how much I like hawks...
Now, that *is* a significant change in EitB. Hawks don't appear at Hunting anymore, they're delayed until Animal Handling. All we get at Hunting is camps, Lodges, and Hunters. We ought to be able to nearly imitate Hawks with Metamagic I adepts, though, as soon as we pick up KotE.

That said - I suppose we will want Hunting eventually, and Ivory is 'free' in the sense of only needing worker turns, so we might as well pick it up before Archery. I guess it depends on how our 'relations' with our neighbors are, how much we want to delay Bronze, but it can wait at least until we're ready to settle said copper. And possibly until after Bowyers to boost the Firebows.

I do agree that although Festivals is nice, we don't want it yet. No point in researching it and leaving the buildings out of the queue. If we can't convince ourselves that Caves are worth building, there's no way Carnivals will be worth doing.

So after all that I find myself in favor of Hunting -> Archery at the moment. Following Archery we can decide between a Bowyers beeline and more econ techs/Bronze/etc. We have a lot of forests we want to cut down anyway so Archery has that side benefit.

I don't think I want to declare war in order to get our main early military tech If we can take out Beeri, then we should, but not for the sake of the engineer! But I don't think we're going to be able to make headway against high-level AIs until we have Fireballs, so it's probably a moot point. It'll probably just be easier to tech there the direct way.
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Old Jan 11, 2012, 01:07 PM   #88
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I guess city number 3 should work another farm until size 3, then work the gold? Or should I start working it on size 2? Which do you guys prefer? (I promise not to ask all the micro questions to everyone - that's just an interesting discussion, in my opinion).
If you can get a grass farm up and running by the time the city grows to size two, I'd work the farm and start working the Gold at size 3.

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P.S. Be sure to check each turn for OB as an option, especially with Beeri!
+1

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Now, that *is* a significant change in EitB. Hawks don't appear at Hunting anymore, they're delayed until Animal Handling. All we get at Hunting is camps, Lodges, and Hunters. We ought to be able to nearly imitate Hawks with Metamagic I adepts, though, as soon as we pick up KotE.

That said - I suppose we will want Hunting eventually, and Ivory is 'free' in the sense of only needing worker turns, so we might as well pick it up before Archery. I guess it depends on how our 'relations' with our neighbors are, how much we want to delay Bronze, but it can wait at least until we're ready to settle said copper. And possibly until after Bowyers to boost the Firebows.

I do agree that although Festivals is nice, we don't want it yet. No point in researching it and leaving the buildings out of the queue. If we can't convince ourselves that Caves are worth building, there's no way Carnivals will be worth doing.

So after all that I find myself in favor of Hunting -> Archery at the moment. Following Archery we can decide between a Bowyers beeline and more econ techs/Bronze/etc. We have a lot of forests we want to cut down anyway so Archery has that side benefit.

I don't think I want to declare war in order to get our main early military tech If we can take out Beeri, then we should, but not for the sake of the engineer! But I don't think we're going to be able to make headway against high-level AIs until we have Fireballs, so it's probably a moot point. It'll probably just be easier to tech there the direct way.
I'm not too hot going Hunting just for the pre-req bonus and extra happy. Festivals is a handy tech, but we won't be losing too much upkeep costs thanks to our compact empire and Organised trait.

I'd either go straight for Archery, or head for KotE.

Archery gives us a defensive option instead of the out of the way Bronze Working technology, and will give us a lot of extra hammers thanks to all the forests we need to chop.

Knowledge of the Ether allows us to build our first Adepts, and maybe even start scouting and meeting the other AI's (and maybe set fire to that northern jungle ). Half-priced Mage Guilds give us another Sage slot to speed up our Academy. Haste will allow us to play zone defense in the event of an attack.

Question: Say we have KotE and Philosophy, would we be able to bulb Ashen Veil with a Great Prophet?
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Old Jan 11, 2012, 01:48 PM   #89
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Archery gives us a defensive option instead of the out of the way Bronze Working technology, and will give us a lot of extra hammers thanks to all the forests we need to chop.

Knowledge of the Ether allows us to build our first Adepts, and maybe even start scouting and meeting the other AI's (and maybe set fire to that northern jungle ). Half-priced Mage Guilds give us another Sage slot to speed up our Academy. Haste will allow us to play zone defense in the event of an attack.

If we had no Ivory, I wouldn't consider Hunting. But since we do - I would think it will pay off pretty quickly, having another cottage/city. I guess it depends on the cost of Hunting, which I can't check now without the game in front of me.

If not Hunting, I would definitely just go straight for Bowyers, not KotE. The world will open up to us once we can firebow the opposition out of the way.

But KotE multiplies the strength of our army, not adds to it, at least with the manas we have - what good does it do to have floating eyes and haste when it only allows us to move non-copper warriors somewhat more intelligently? We need something to be a decent army before there's any point in boosting said army.

Quote:
Question: Say we have KotE and Philosophy, would we be able to bulb Ashen Veil with a Great Prophet?
I *think* we could bulb the Veil that way, yes. At least Corruption of Spirit has been #1 on the bulb list, and Sareln didn't say he changed it. But this probably needs a worldbuilder test to be certain.
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Old Jan 11, 2012, 02:42 PM   #90
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Played 6 turns and we have a pretty big problem!

But before that, let's make the turn report:

Turn 60:

Moved the warriors to defend against the skeleton and ended turn. It was moot, since Beeri ganged him with 3 combat 2 warriors...


Turn 61:

Met Alexis:

Spoiler:


Worst enemy of Beeri, that's good!

Beeri's stack... A lot of promotions...
Spoiler:



I microed the second city to finish the EC and grow to size 5 at EoT. Capital started on a settler. Workers built mines, roads and a grassland farm for the third city.


Turn 62:

Employed the scientist for the academy.

Spoiler:


About the southern land, here's some pictures. I explored a bit more afterwards walking near the coast. No seafood, unfortunately. Notice on the first picture that no fresh water means the water we can see on the fog is coast.

Spoiler:




Turn 63:

Just micro, nothing important.


Turn 64:

Education teched and open borders with Perpentach. Loki shows up at our borders, meanin potential (spoilers: soon to be real) problems. He can enter our territory with or without open borders, so I decided to go ahead with the deal, anyway.

Started cottaging the land. Started teching Archery (Ilios made a compelling point, especially regarding the chopping bonus).

Turn 65:

Turtles on a lake! Are they a good sign?

Spoiler:


Arendel finishes the Pact of the Nilhorn. So we have Grigori, Balseraphs, Calabim, Luchuirp, Ljosalfar (oops, thanks NobleHelium) that I know so far.

Spoiler:



Turn 66:

And here's where I stopped. Loki ended turn inside one of our cities. Yes, inside the third one (forgot to rename the cities, sorry), with no culture and no possible way to get any culture soon.

I saved the game and ended turn to see if he'd flip the city (sorry about that, but setting up a test game would take very long) and yes, he will. So we need to decide: lose the city or go to war. Or better yet, we need to start making our battle plans.

We have one warrior in Udenarat (city closest to Perp), with 2 xp (unpromoted) and 2 warriors near (that I was going to use to escort the new settler) that can get there on turn 67, one with 5 xp, still unpromoted, and the other with 1 xp. Udenarat can make a 2 turn warrior too.

Spoiler:


So I stopped here to get some feedback. I'll attach the save too.

What do you guys think? I say we need to declare war, stick a bunch of warriors in Udenarat and wait. We need to be very careful about peace deals with Perp, since unbreakable peace + Loki + non creatice civ = bad. Luckily, we are currently teching archery.

Settling the northern copper city, like I was planning too, just got a lot more dangerous and tricky.

Ah, Perp is currently expansive, financial and charismatic ().
Attached Files
File Type: civbeyondswordsave RB-EitB-SG1 AD-0066.CivBeyondSwordSave (144.8 KB, 2 views)
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Last edited by Ichabod; Jan 12, 2012 at 04:10 AM.
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Old Jan 11, 2012, 07:24 PM   #91
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.

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Old Jan 11, 2012, 10:21 PM   #92
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Nice, haven't seen a FFH SG for ages, will lurk with interest...
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Old Jan 11, 2012, 10:32 PM   #93
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Arendel is Ljosalfar...
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Old Jan 11, 2012, 11:21 PM   #94
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Lurker: I am not 100% sure if you throw Loki out of your lands when you declare war. If it doesn't, you have a perfect way to kill him right there. Loki's retreat is based off Flanking. You don't retreat when you are in a city. Loki doesn't either. That is the only way to kill the punk: hit him while he is in a city.
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 12:05 AM   #95
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Yeah, instinctively I'd say wardec and see what happens. Worst case scenario if Perpy rolls us we've only wasted a couple days on this and maybe the next one won't have such a cramped start.
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 02:16 AM   #96
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Played 6 turns and we have a pretty big problem!
As expected...

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Ah, Perp is currently expansice, financial and charismatic ().


Quote:
Originally Posted by darrelljs View Post
.


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Originally Posted by Ozbenno View Post
Nice, haven't seen a FFH SG for ages, will lurk with interest...
Welcome aboard!

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Originally Posted by NobleHelium View Post
Arendel is Ljosalfar...
What would be do without our Terse Lurker?

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Lurker: I am not 100% sure if you throw Loki out of your lands when you declare war. If it doesn't, you have a perfect way to kill him right there. Loki's retreat is based off Flanking. You don't retreat when you are in a city. Loki doesn't either. That is the only way to kill the punk: hit him while he is in a city.
Nope, Loki will stay put when you declare on the Balseraphs.

I'm wondering, if you move out the Warrior from Nimarail, following a road so you have one move left, then declare war and attack Loki, wouldn't we kill the bastard?

In any case, I say we move the two Warrior slated for escort duty inside Balseraph lands, and pillage that Gold tile. If we kill Loki, I think we get away with producing just one Warrior at capital, then continue with the Settler build.

Also, I would prefer founding 2W from the Cows, as it will be a better city long-term, and easier to defend than the plains hill tile.

Edit: My vote goes for an Archery Range in Udenarat. If I recall correctly, Archery Ranges now add a 25% defense bonus to cities (instead of 10%).

Last edited by Ilios; Jan 12, 2012 at 02:26 AM.
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 02:38 AM   #97
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Also, Ichabod, if the southern exploring Warrior is moving west along the coast, I suggest to keep him moving, to put some pressure on Perp's southeastern lands.
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 03:04 AM   #98
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Nope, Loki will stay put when you declare on the Balseraphs.

I'm wondering, if you move out the Warrior from Nimarail, following a road so you have one move left, then declare war and attack Loki, wouldn't we kill the bastard?
Lurker: Two ways of doing it there.

1. You have units ready and wait for Loki to flip the city and hope he stays in the city for defence until they build a defender. Then, declare and nail him, taking the city back in the same turn.

2. Declare and nail him now (although I am not 100% sure if he won't retreat from YOUR city; I am only certain he won't retreat from Perpy's cities).

Just mind that Loki has a Defence of 2. A single warrior might not kill him on his own.
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 04:30 AM   #99
Ichabod
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.

Darrell


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozbenno View Post
Nice, haven't seen a FFH SG for ages, will lurk with interest...


Quote:
Originally Posted by NobleHelium View Post
Arendel is Ljosalfar...
Already corrected it, thanks NH!

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJ11 View Post
Lurker: I am not 100% sure if you throw Loki out of your lands when you declare war. If it doesn't, you have a perfect way to kill him right there. Loki's retreat is based off Flanking. You don't retreat when you are in a city. Loki doesn't either. That is the only way to kill the punk: hit him while he is in a city.
I guess he's be teleported due to "no enemy units in the same tile rule". But now that I think about it, there's also a chance that our warrior would get teleported... So I think I'll go with the option that tries to kill the bastard.

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Yeah, instinctively I'd say wardec and see what happens. Worst case scenario if Perpy rolls us we've only wasted a couple days on this and maybe the next one won't have such a cramped start.
You are taking all the tension out of it.

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Originally Posted by Ilios View Post
In any case, I say we move the two Warrior slated for escort duty inside Balseraph lands, and pillage that Gold tile. If we kill Loki, I think we get away with producing just one Warrior at capital, then continue with the Settler build.
That'd mean leaving only a single warrior defending Udenarat (the pillaging thing). And even with defensive boni from a hill, our warriors will get swamped by 3 promo Perp units. Beeri had 3 spare warriors to kill a skeleton, for example. I say we stick to defense, try to settle the 4th city and wait for longbows.

What do the other players think? I'm going to play the final turns something like 3 hours for now. Although if some want wants to jump ahead and play it, the save is attached.
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Old Jan 12, 2012, 04:50 AM   #100
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We are going to have to take some chances to have a shot, so I favor the aggressive line .

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