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Old Jan 16, 2012, 06:42 PM   #61
Um the Muse
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Turns 89-160: Population Expansion

Give yourselves a point if you know what the title is from.

I decided that my first playthrough was the best because it turns out that I couldn't manage to get my copper hooked up in time (I could defend my cities easily enough, but I couldn't stop barbarians from pillaging).

Spoiler:



Quick and Dirty Looks Ugly
This turnset involved whipping and odd build swaps. Learning from the barb activity in some of those alternate play-throughs, I decided that it was a good idea to keep 1 in an archer just in case. I also started to build a barracks in the cap with a settler on the backburner when I researched writing. Oops.

I've chopped granaries in all three cities and should have them start contributing soon, but I'm really starting to second guess my city spots

Somehow, I thought that SRP had plains-hills in its BFC. The fact that it doesn't is really gonna hurt my plans. I think that SRP is in the best place to get that copper, but it doesn't have a food resource. The only saving grace is that I'm Exp with pottery (for quick and easy granaries, doncha know).

Tech-wise, Toku (no, really) appears to be ahead of everyone. He's already got alphabet, while I just started aesthetics. Since he don't trade wit' no-one, I'm thinking that I should probably go for alpha too. I should be able to research it faster since somebody else has it, right?

So, what do you think? Have I already shot myself in the foot too many times? Or can such a commerce-rich start pull me out of dead-beat central?

Edit: I have no idea why I have Copper Mount building a library. Obviously, that would be a horrible place for it.
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Old Jan 16, 2012, 08:44 PM   #62
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I love the early game, so it's fun to see your position although you didn't discuss much your future plans. SRP does have a food resource, and it will at least have the 1 plains hill after a border pop!
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Old Jan 16, 2012, 09:15 PM   #63
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^ Ah, that's true, I didn't. Frankly I'm just about to wind down what I think was the "obvious" part of the game i.e. the expansion phase. I've got to take the gold up north, but I think after that I could be happy turtling up at this point if I had to.

So, here's what I'm thinking:
1. The capital needs to start growing at this stage. No ifs, ands, or buts about it. It also should have cottages. So, I will start out building a couple of farms, then switch to cottages as I get closer to my happy limit. It will be gorgeous in time.

2. SRP is and always was meant to be only good in the short term. My original idea of having it be my worker/ settler pump is shot, but I can still salvage it, I think. My idea is to build a library there and let it run two scientists. I don't know the tech tree well enough to say for certain when I'd like them to appear by, but I think my goal should be to bulb Philosophy with him. That should get as many beakers as possible out of him. If he comes out too early, the academy is also a strong option.

Copper Mount will have to fill in for the other two/ three cities in terms of producing military and possibly workers. Hopefully, I can go barb city hunting soon. There are two barb cities nearby. The one to the south is on a hill, but I might be able to grab the one that's to my NNE.

El Dorado will probably also end up with cottages, but that sounds incredibly slow and I don't like the idea of so much focus on commerce.
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Old Jan 16, 2012, 10:51 PM   #64
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Counter-idea: don't build any more farms around the capital.
If the food surplus from the Rice isn't enough, you can always work the farmed flood plain.

Copper Mount can produce 10 at size 2.
(if you chop and mine the plains hill, maybe put the chop into a barracks?)

Whipping a library in SRP might be a good idea, if it can produce a Great Scientist it is definitely contributing. The library will also pop your borders, I sense you are avoiding a monument.
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Old Jan 17, 2012, 12:01 AM   #65
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I do indeed try to avoid Mysticism/ monuments when I can. And yes, I get myself in trouble for doing that sometimes . Where are those missionaries when you need them, hey?

I should be fine in Copper Mount; with a granary and a highish happy limit, CM can actually average more than 10 / turn by whipping. Farmed foodpains are stronger production tiles than mined plains hills until you hit the angry limit. Btw, I'm only seeing 9 : 2 from city tile, 3 from copper mine, 4 from plains hill.

As for the cap, I think you're spot on. There's an argument going on about how to get your cottage cities up fastest and I think this was another case of getting too smart for my own good. Really, I shouldn't even need to borrow from SRP again for awhile.

Thanks for the comment!
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Old Jan 17, 2012, 12:49 AM   #66
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You're right about Copper Mount (my eyes were playing tricks on that copper yield) but without a food resource you might consider stagnating and producing at least a settler. Farmed floodplains are good but it takes quite a few worker turns to improve one (7 turns on Normal?).

Happy to contribute!
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Old Jan 17, 2012, 03:17 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Um the Muse View Post
I should be able to research it faster since somebody else has it, right?
I think the discount is very marginal.
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Old Jan 17, 2012, 03:26 AM   #68
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Getting a borderpop in SRP would be nice.
I'm not sure I like the idea of a library there though, SRP feels like a production city.
But a academy in this capital would be a absolute beast... Tough call!

I would like to see a city south/west of the capital, working the cows and helping to grow a few cottages for the capital.

An idea could be to skip alpha/currency, and just beeline through myst->medi->priest toward CoL and CS, after maths.
Caste system would save you alot of hammers, since you can get GScientists w/o libraries, and you get borderpops from artists.

*edit*
Would copper mound have been stronger if it was placed 1SE on that plain?
Two more hills, one more floodplain, and many more riverside grassland to share with the capital.

If you placed copper mound up there to gain the 1hammer, I think you are overvaluing short term!

Last edited by krikav; Jan 17, 2012 at 03:32 AM.
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Old Jan 17, 2012, 10:32 AM   #69
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SRP has desert hills, which are pretty terrible for production. At size 5 (happy cap) it could work farmed flood plain, the rice, a plains hill, and 2 scientists which is a decent mix.

A city should be founded that uses the cows, but I wouldn't try to maximize overlap with the capital. With that in mind I would consider settling 2S of the rice.

As far as Caste System, it's a bit gimmicky and we lose the ability to whip. I prefer early library for an academy as suggested.

Copper Mound should be fine if we stay at 2 pop for awhile and produce settler(s) and units.
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Old Jan 17, 2012, 10:06 PM   #70
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Getting a borderpop in SRP would be nice.
I'm not sure I like the idea of a library there though, SRP feels like a production city.
But a academy in this capital would be a absolute beast... Tough call!

I would like to see a city south/west of the capital, working the cows and helping to grow a few cottages for the capital.
I would too, if I can though I think that the fish is even more important. Thank you, solid advice there. I should probably try to surround the capital with helper cities to build up those cottages, too.

Quote:
An idea could be to skip alpha/currency, and just beeline through myst->medi->priest toward CoL and CS, after maths.
Caste system would save you alot of hammers, since you can get GScientists w/o libraries, and you get borderpops from artists.
Err. After math? Are you saying that I should research Aesthetics and Math, then the religious techs? Also, I'm not sure about giving up slavery any time soon. Even if I did, wouldn't it be better to get CoL the other way?

Quote:
*edit*
Would copper mound have been stronger if it was placed 1SE on that plain?
Two more hills, one more floodplain, and [two] more riverside grassland to share with the capital.

If you placed copper mound up there to gain the 1hammer, I think you are overvaluing short term!
You could be right about that. I haven't shown the best judgment with city placements so far. And in fact, during those trial runs I mentioned before, I did indeed build there. The issue with the plains is a short-run problem of not having any food. Still, since this is my third city, I should've realized that the cap would get another border pop soonish. I'll keep that in mind for the future.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 01:28 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Um the Muse View Post

Err. After math? Are you saying that I should research Aesthetics and Math, then the religious techs? Also, I'm not sure about giving up slavery any time soon. Even if I did, wouldn't it be better to get CoL the other way?
The purpose I had in mind, when skimping alpha/curr, is to beeline CS.
In that case, aestethics would be skipped as well.
I would just beeline straight for CS after getting math for chops.

I speculate that such a venture could be worthwhile, with a small empire and a fantastic capital.

Probably unnecessery complicated though. Better stick to standard stuff.


Quote:
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The issue with the plains is a short-run problem of not having any food.
When I glance on the screenshot, I don't see any food at copper mound where it is placed now either.



Thanks again for putting up a very nice thread!
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 08:01 AM   #72
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So, you're suggesting that I switch techs now. Hmm. What kind of bulb could I use? Is this faster/ better than CoL via, uh, currency? I can't remember the path right now.

Where Copper Mount/ Cwm is now, it's at least got a foodpain. I thought it was important to have at least that much. Of course, the much stronger play would be to grab the fish, but that's only in make-believe town because the game doesn't let you build two cities that close to one another.

I'm glad that you enjoy following along. Is there anything you (or anyone else following along) would like to see done differently? I do plan on adding more screenshots of diplomacy once we're able to do something about it. Anything else you'd like to see?
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 08:34 AM   #73
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So, you're suggesting that I switch techs now. Hmm. What kind of bulb could I use? Is this faster/ better than CoL via, uh, currency? I can't remember the path right now.
Forget that I said anything about that!

Quote:
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Where Copper Mount/ Cwm is now, it's at least got a foodpain. I thought it was important to have at least that much. Of course, the much stronger play would be to grab the fish, but that's only in make-believe town because the game doesn't let you build two cities that close to one another.
The spot I had in mind for Copper mound, is the plain tile that is south-east of the current location.
The spot I had in mind is 1E of the copper.
This spot also have a flood plain.

Are we talking about the same spot or are my eyes decieving me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Um the Muse View Post
I'm glad that you enjoy following along. Is there anything you (or anyone else following along) would like to see done differently? I do plan on adding more screenshots of diplomacy once we're able to do something about it. Anything else you'd like to see?
I personally have troubles with managing great people in a efficient manner.
Knowing when to hire specialists. Timing the arrival of Gpeople and what to do with them.
So naturally, I would love to see more details of how other players manage this.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 10:06 AM   #74
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Any further thoughts on my latest post?
Going forward I was suggesting halting growth in Copper Mound (at size 2) to produce a settler or perhaps military, while SRP can stagnate at happy cap with scientists and decent production.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 11:48 AM   #75
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SRP has desert hills, which are pretty terrible for production. At size 5 (happy cap) it could work farmed flood plain, the rice, a plains hill, and 2 scientists which is a decent mix.

A city should be founded that uses the cows, but I wouldn't try to maximize overlap with the capital. With that in mind I would consider settling 2S of the rice.

As far as Caste System, it's a bit gimmicky and we lose the ability to whip. I prefer early library for an academy as suggested.

Copper Mound should be fine if we stay at 2 pop for awhile and produce settler(s) and units.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to skip your post. It just seemed like you were largely offering my arguments for me

Well, your first argument was spot on anyway. That was exactly the vision I had for SRP.

Building a city to the south is also a good plan, thinks I. I think that I can cram both cities in, thanks to the fish. Tuna Town will help me get the capital's cottages running that much faster and still be able to provide GP. I plan to eventually switch to Caste and when I do, Tuna Town can give me the great people I deserve need. Note that this will have to be after bureacracy and possibly before my first Deity war. Slavery is the ultimate emergency preparedness plan

Due to popular demand, I shall rename Copper Mount to Copper Mound, then Keeping the city small is key, I'll grant you that. When I get a border pop, I think I'll grow the city out to 4 though. As I mentioned before, farmed floodplains are stronger production tiles than plains hills when whipping, so I'd rather 2 pop whip I think.
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Old Jan 18, 2012, 11:57 AM   #76
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Forget that I said anything about that!


The spot I had in mind for Copper mound, is the plain tile that is south-east of the current location.
The spot I had in mind is 1E of the copper.
This spot also have a flood plain.

Are we talking about the same spot or are my eyes decieving me?



I personally have troubles with managing great people in a efficient manner.
Knowing when to hire specialists. Timing the arrival of Gpeople and what to do with them.
So naturally, I would love to see more details of how other players manage this.
I'm afraid my own timing is about as good as this punchline (that is to say, awful). Maybe together we can figure this out though.

As for the plains tile also having a foodpain, err, what's that? Is that a distraction? *scurries to hide head in shame*. I honestly don't know what I was thinking.

Well, looks like this playthrough is really turning out to be a learning experience
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Old Jan 19, 2012, 10:00 PM   #77
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Turns 160-214: In Which I Win the Beauty Contest

Hello again and welcome to another exciting installment of "Monarch level player's gonna get creamed."

This whole turnset, I made some decisions that might have been *hmm* ill-advised (so, what else is new ). I was rather afraid that I might not make it to Aesthetics in time, but I got Tuna Town while I didn't build El Dorado yet.

Here's my empire at turn 214 (the turn that I got Aesthetics):

Spoiler:


Lisbon and Tuna Town
You might not be able to tell from the screenshot, but the three cottages over by Tuna Town are being developed by it. All of those cottages are being used, with the exception of the plains cottage. I wanted the plains cottage because I didn't want unhappies in the city, but I got Buddhism spread to me so I'm using the rice again.

Copper Mound
You'll be pleased to note that the name change is now official You might be less pleased to note that it's a size three city. Don't worry; the last guy is a dead man walking once I can whip his carcass.

SRP
SRP had some anger management issues, so I've had to be very firm in putting them in their place. I had to whip twice in quick succession so I can get my library quickly. They've settled down since then; I've now got them farming science.

The Tech sitch: Beauty Conquers All
Spoiler:


The World In Review
I've recently gotten Buddhism spread to me. Given that all the warmongers are Buddhist, I think that this is an easy choice. Sorry Saladin and Hyuana Capac, that's just the way it's got to be. I've put off converting this long because I wanted to make sure that I got Aesthetics first. I also would like to trade with HC before I upset him So, how about a little advice in trades? My thought was that since everybody has Alphabet except the one guy that everybody hates, I don't need Alpha just yet. In that case, Sailing is certainly much more valuable. But, the problem is that I'm not 100% sure that I'll be able to get any more techs for Aesthetics. Why is Ragnar against trading with me? Do I need to get him to Pleased? Maybe I should put a few more beakers into Alpha before trading away my only bargaining chip?

Plans Going Forward
I need to get El Dorado. I would like one more city to the south and I would like to take out a couple of barb cities.

I've made a mistake in building too many archers, fearing for my safety with so many warmongers nearby, so I might as well try to build a buffer between my capital and any enemies. I do not plan on fighting anybody anytime soon, but I might as well stir up some wars with Aesthetics. Monty is already gearing up for war, as is Saladin. Might as well see if I can make sure that it's with each other.

Tech-wise, I'm a little confused. I kinda expected stuff from the bottom of the tech tree being available. Now, it makes sense that nobody wants to trade iron-working, but what about MC? I think that forges will be a big blessing for my empire since I will have both gems and gold by then. That would be a good thing for the GS to get for me, I guess. Meanwhile, I can work towards Civil Service.
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 04:03 PM   #78
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Copper Mound's name change was already official, we just neglected to tell the inhabitants!

Sounds like things are under control in CM and SRP.
...Tuna Town is a bit of a misnomer as long as that barb galley is disrupting the primary food tile. Even more motivation for Metal Casting, I guess.

Is there a reason why you haven't mined your grass hills near the capital? I would think that production would trump cottages, but I could be wrong.

A theoretical suggestion...
Uhm, you mentioned having excess archers, perhaps you could suicide a few to soften up barb defenders?

And more practical, in regards to tech trading:
Personally I am neglectful of diplomacy and I usually settle for passive stuff like same religion, favorite civics, etc. (So I don't know much about war bribes.)
If that is your plan the simplest option I see is to trade Monty a tech for his war declaration and then HC should contribute Sailing, Mysticism, and Masonry.

A risky (bad) idea might be to hold off on trading Aesthetics until your religious ties make more tech trades available to you. Of course the danger is that an AI could self-research Aesthetics weakening your trade monopoly.

Good luck, as always.
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 06:01 PM   #79
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I'm not experienced with war bribes, either, this just looked like the perfect opportunity. Thinking it over some more, maybe Monty wouldn't be the best choice, though. He's actually willing to trade and he's reasonably religious. If I can manage it, I'd rather Toku make the first move. Here's a thought: is Saladin zealous enough to go toe-to-toe with Toku? That might be the best. I'm itching for a chance to pull the trigger and still come out smelling like a bed of roses. Toku seems to be the tech leader, which probably means he's also ahead in good land given his lack of econ traits and xenophobic tendencies.

Also, getting Saladin and Toku to fight would probably get others to dog-pile our hapless Religious Fanatic.
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Old Jan 20, 2012, 06:55 PM   #80
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Montezuma is quite religious, and might indeed make a useful trading partner. He already has a couple of nice techs, which he unfortunately doesn't seem ready to trade.
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