Sons of Monarchy II: Suleiman

[Giant Wolfman]

Welcome to Sons of Monarchy: Round II

Our second game will feature Suleiman of the Ottomans


Suleiman is:
Philsophical: +100% points & Double Production of Universities
Imperialistic: +100% Great General Emergence & 50% Faster Settler Production

More (or at least Earlier) Great People & Great Generals for Suleiman!

Ottoman's Starting Techs & Uniques:
Agriculture & The Wheel
Hammam: An aqueduct that also gives +2
Janissary: A Musketman with +25% against Archery, Melee, & Mounted

Hammam is one of my favorite UB's, bumping up both health and happy caps. Janissary is decent, though limited by the fact that it is a musket and that its bonuses do not carry on if the unit is improved (eg the Oromo)

The Start:


Fractal Map, No Huts, No Events, All Other Settings Standard

Spoiler for Map Details:

Third map rolled after very poor land distribution on first two maps. We have a very close neighbor who may be too boxed in. We should be able to get enough land peacefully though.

To play: I am using the same process as the Noble's Club so those familiar with that excellent series just do the same thing. Download the attached zip files & unzip into your BTS/Saves/Worldbuilder folder. Go to Custom Scenarios, select the SoM Save corresponding to your desired difficulty level, and customize game settings as desired. I have not included saves for Prince and lower difficulties. If the demand is present, I can start adding them. If you are playing Monarch or higher, you will need to add techs to barbs. To do so

Spoiler:

zoom all the way in, open worldbuilder, and add the appropriate techs to the barbarian civilization. This means archery at monarch or higher, hunting at emperor or higher, agriculture at immortal or deity, and the wheel at deity.

Posts should include: Thoughts on start/where to settle first and what initial tech path. Later saves can include position at 1 AD, liberalism race as a midgame checkpoint, and the final result. Players are encouraged to post as much as they desire, though screenshots/saves make receiving help easier. Spoiler details about the map and your playing for all details except regarding the opening screenshot.

Good luck, and happy civving!

[Giant Wolfman]

I have made No events the default option, since that seemed to be some of the feedback from the first game.

About this map & settling:

Spoiler for What's in the fog Knowledge:

SIP or 1NE gives the most food. SIP is slightly better for commerce, 1NE for production in my opinion (though here you lose a forest, fresh water, and automatic irrigation of the wheat)

[Zx Zero Zx]

Spoiler:

How the hell is 1NE more food? It's actually less.

[Giant Wolfman]

@Zero

Spoiler:

Assuming you've opened the save, 1NE & SIP are the only two locations that grab the pigs, wheat, & corn in the fog. More brown than SIP yes, but that's the other option if you want to get all three food specials in the BFC

[Zx Zero Zx]

Originally Posted by Giant Wolfman

@Zero

Spoiler:

Assuming you've opened the save, 1NE & SIP are the only two locations that grab the pigs, wheat, & corn in the fog. More brown than SIP yes, but that's the other option if you want to get all three food specials in the BFC

Spoiler:

It's less food though as it doesn't have the Riverside Green, SIP is really the only good spot.

Well screw this map, my 3 Spears died to Khans 3 HA on defense.... Stupid RNG screwing me some more.

[vranasm]

didn't read those spoilers so not sure if they don't talk about strategy for this map...

but I shoot...

landlocked start, Phil leader, no fishing...

ah, writing, mining, bw are techs you will need in first ~40 turns, the problem is order

then aesth, mc, back trade for alpha, math and if the map (since it's fractal) didn't screw us with isolation we are good on the way towards BC engineering - this can be decided after those first 40 turns of exploration and meeting AI's.

On Monarch difficulty you can't rely on back trades much, but the costs are cheaper.

[Zx Zero Zx]

Originally Posted by vranasm

didn't read those spoilers so not sure if they don't talk about strategy for this map...

but I shoot...

landlocked start, Phil leader, no fishing...

ah, writing, mining, bw are techs you will need in first ~40 turns, the problem is order

then aesth, mc, back trade for alpha, math and if the map (since it's fractal) didn't screw us with isolation we are good on the way towards BC engineering - this can be decided after those first 40 turns of exploration and meeting AI's.

On Monarch difficulty you can't rely on back trades much, but the costs are cheaper.

Your neighbor will DoW before you can get to Engineering. He DoWd on be with a 4 unit stack....

[JSS]

Spoiler:

I played this map on immortal for a bit to see how it feels like. Kublai declares at some point no matter what. I had 6 axes + 4 spears and I lost one spear at the time so it was more than enough. He had 4-5 keshiks and a few melee units (swords, spears). Since there are elephants nearby, going for engineering would be a good way to kill Mongolia and possibly Holy Romans (or sweep the whole map while we're at it).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't getting 4 Great scientist the quickest way to get to engineering? 1 for academy, 1 for MC, 1 for machinery and 1 for engineering. I'd think that's doable with a philosophical leader on 2 libraries? Having to avoid fishing though stinks because there's a great spot for whipping and working the capital cottages 3 tiles down from the starting location.

[goldys_lackey]

Originally Posted by vranasm

landlocked start, Phil leader, no fishing...

ah, writing, mining, bw are techs you will need in first ~40 turns, the problem is order

then aesth, mc, back trade for alpha, math and if the map (since it's fractal) didn't screw us with isolation we are good on the way towards BC engineering - this can be decided after those first 40 turns of exploration and meeting AI's.

On Monarch difficulty you can't rely on back trades much, but the costs are cheaper.

I'm curious why BC engineering is a priority. Is it a good trade chip on Deity?

[Zx Zero Zx]

Originally Posted by goldys_lackey

I'm curious why BC engineering is a priority. Is it a good trade chip on Deity?

Because you win the game with it...... Do you know what the second best siege in the game is?

[cseanny]

Played till about 1200 AD, Emperor, Normal:

Spoiler:

Edit: 2 city Axe war with Khan while building Oracle, taking MC, building a forge, running an engineer, and then Rushing the Mids. Expanded to 8 cities by 300AD and 2 more sometime after. I ended up with Oracle, SH (800bc!), TGL, Parthenon and have been settling all GP in my Cottaged Capital. TGL/NE is actually in Khans old Capital. Am teching towards Cannon/Anything because Qin is pretty massive and I'm not thrilled about fighting w/ non-siege units versus him.

For more info check out the save because it tells more than a picture! .

Do you know what the second best siege in the game is?

I vote Cho's lol.

ah, writing, mining, bw are techs you will need in first ~40 turns, the problem is order

I didn't get AH until almost 1AD lol.

[ahcos]

I didn't get AH until almost 1AD lol.

Spoiler:

Not quite sure what's so funny about that as it's clearly a weak move with so much AH resources all over the place.

Also curious why you didn't settle the fish spot in the north, and why you didn't split Bursa's food into two cities. Or why you, when you already decide to cottage the cap, didn't settle another city closer to it so it can pre-grow the cottages much earlier. Or, once again, why there's so much forest left unchopped.

Do you know what the second best siege in the game is?

With cannons rank #1, i'd say Bombers.

[vranasm]

Originally Posted by cseanny

I didn't get AH until almost 1AD lol.

well 6F tile is 6F tile... opens Writing too, but since the leader already offers Wheel it's a bit weaker (you can pottage->writing quicker)

I still didn't play the map and didn't check spoilers so can't comment on overall usefulness of ah x pottery, but if you decide pottery->writing then clearly mining->bw first

sometimes having BW before writing/pottery is a little bit of trap for commerce in low commerce scenario, one have to evaluate correctly.

[cseanny]

@ Ahcos

Spoiler:

No fault of yours but you keep saying generalized statements w/out knowing the details or reasoning behind them (my reasoning).

GRANTED........It's pretty hard to see the big picture by looking at one, or a couple of pictures so I'll explain, but you seem to have a habit of jumping to your own conclusions with incomplete information

It wasn't a weak move skipping AH. If you want to get the Oracle in a reasonable time on this map you must skip it. Additionally you want to start your forge sooner rather than later so you can get the Mids a bit after 1000 BC. Simply put, I calculated the timing just right imo. Masonry, my GE, and Library all finished on the same turn. None of the above would have been possible picking up AH first.

In addition to that, at 850 BC I'm about to go into Repr and then grow to happy cap before working anymore specialist. Getting AH at a point in time where it would take 12 turns at 50% slider with losing gold is no thanks. By the time I was able to run specialist and get great research I'd already be at happy cap and AH is even less attractive. To compound it even further........12+ turns to gain 3F which isnt as useful as it would be earlier severely slows down my GTL and susequent GAs starve fest. The point? It would cost me such a ridiculous amount of beakers in the circumstances. Plus Khans capital already had a pasture so the only real loss I took was growing my 4th city a bit slower which was OK. It had a FP farm, non river farm, then +1FP cottages which worked fine.

Plus, I was really hoping to trade for it a lot sooner than I did but that's ok. Set your priorities and stick to em

I did settle the fish spot, later. It's in my save. I didn't settle closer to my Capital because my 4th city spot would add a lot more to my empire because it could constantly work cottages from the get go. At 1230AD my Capital is bringing in 450 when maximizing research which was made possible by good early tile management.....exactly the opposite of what you're getting at.

Bursa has more whip potential how it is and I had calculated my empire wide as such that I could start whipping cannons/other units at a reasonable date of 1200AD. Additional cities might seem good in practice at this point but you actually end up losing short term gains via more production sooner than later (more maintenance + delayed whipping =s slower research and less immediate units, even if in the long run you get more) which as we all know translates to more conquered cities at an earlier date compounding the advantage. Long way of saying I made a deliberate and imo correct choice in my calculations.

The forest are there because I JUST settled those cities, that very turn. Other than that there are only 2 forest in Karo (health) until I can trade and 3 in my Capital which are already pre chopped for Oxford. Samsu below my Capital had 2 forest pre-chopped, one of which just went towards a WB. Bursa forested hill is going to be chopped into a second WB, but I'm delaying it so I can whip/chop overflow into a lighthouse.

So obviously a lot more goes into each decision than you can see by simply looking at a single screen shot. I don't mind questions but in the future please try to work on your delivery a bit.

well 6F tile is 6F tile... opens Writing too, but since the leader already offers Wheel it's a bit weaker (you can pottage->writing quicker)

I probably spent about 20 minutes (well it seemed like it!) deliberating and getting the math just right to make sense of it all. There was actually a purpose to the madness lol. Yes, I went min>bw>pottery (2 early cottages)>Myt>Med>Priest>Oracle (MC/Forge/engineer)>writing>masonry (Mids)....while also plotting an early war.

[Zx Zero Zx]

Originally Posted by ahcos

Spoiler:

Not quite sure what's so funny about that as it's clearly a weak move with so much AH resources all over the place.

Also curious why you didn't settle the fish spot in the north, and why you didn't split Bursa's food into two cities. Or why you, when you already decide to cottage the cap, didn't settle another city closer to it so it can pre-grow the cottages much earlier. Or, once again, why there's so much forest left unchopped.

With cannons rank #1, i'd say Bombers.

Bombers don't count as they are so late in the game that you have won by that point. Cannons and Trebs turn a sketchy situation into a won game with enough.

[ahcos]

@cseanny:

Spoiler:

Sorry to say, but AH not until close to 1AD? No matter what you prioritized, that seems very wrong with so many AH resources around. It worked out for you, so w/e man do as you please

I'm not here to lecture you, i was under the impression that you might want some input. I'll keep my mouth shut if everything i suggest offends you that badly.

[cain3456]

Since the name of the series is Sons of Monarchy, wouldn't it have sense to use Monarch level saves so we don't have to mess with Worldbuilder just to play?

[Zx Zero Zx]

Originally Posted by cain3456

Since the name of the series is Sons of Monarchy, wouldn't it have sense to use Monarch level saves so we don't have to mess with Worldbuilder just to play?

No as it will be like having a nobles club that you can ONLY play on noble. If you want to play on Monarch play on monarch....

[Giant Wolfman]

Monarch Normal 1832 Culture Victory

Spoiler:

Started with an axe rush of KK (Neglected to take screenshots but was able to figure out the dates post game). Declared 1280 BC, had captured his first two cities including Karakorum by 1040 BC. Took a short 10 turn peace to heal up then wiped him off the map by taking out Turfan. The Oracle, Great Wall & Mids were still available. Was able to grab the latter two but missed out on the Oracle by a couple turns. Chased after the Great Wall because of the large area between myself and Charlie once KK was gone, and mids for rep. No stone/nonindustrious mids was sooo slow, but the lack of commerce was going to be a serious problem so I felt like I take a shot at grabbing Rep. This is only my 3rd game on Monarch (with the first two being Noble Clubs games), and I really felt the lack of commerce here. Almost went on strike in the late (or would it be early ) BC's because I was focusing so much more on scientists and production than I usually do.

Grabbed the Parthenon & late (920 AD) Great Library for more great people and Paya for Free Religion--I didn't have either of the major religions so diplo would be a problem for the foreseeable future. Was eventually able to expand out, bulbing philo, paper, and part of education before winning Lib in 1260 AD and taking economics



Could've had it earlier but postponed to get a better tech, in this case economics for the GM and also because my Golden Age was almost out and I wanted to switch into Free Speech anarchy free. I probably could've won any way but diplo, but figured since I had so many religions spread to me (6 of the 7), culture would be a nice changeup from the typical cuirassier roflstomp. From there I was able to pump out a couple GM's to run the slider higher and artists to speed things up. Three cities of Istanbul, Edirne (settled NW of Istanbul with the fish, wheat, and copper) and Karkorum reached legendary in 1832 AD, within 8 turns of one another.


And the score:

Not great, but a personal best for culture score though not quickest culture time.


Finished with a total of 9 Great Artists, 7 GSs, 4 GMs to fund the slider, a GSpy for golden ages, and a GE used to rush the Taj.

Lot of good for me this game. Hadn't tried a (relatively) high level axe rush before, and the crash hit me pretty hard for a while. I was able to make it out alive though.

Unrelated to my game, but to the SoM series:

I apologize for what I feel has been poor hosting by myself. When I started this a month or so ago I thought it wouldn't be a problem at all. Unfortunately, real life hit hard right after I started the series and has prevented me from having either the time to play or enjoy Civ as I had before. Things look better from here on out, and as long as there is interest I will keep posting games, hopefully being more active in the process

[Htadus]

Originally Posted by Zx Zero Zx

Because you win the game with it...... Do you know what the second best siege in the game is?

Cats. And only second to Trebs by a small margin.

The value of seige is related to who is defending the seige unit and who is getting attacked. Spear/axe defending a cat that attack a archer/axe (even a LB) is very impressive. I am not speaking for deity btw since I do not play it but this is true for up to immortal.