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Old Mar 18, 2012, 02:18 AM   #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NotSure View Post
I probably write way too much, but this was in my log. We can probably get them both done before Legalism, but I was just playing it safe.
Ah, okay, sorry, I had scanned your log for a reference, but hadn't expect this info at turn 8 of your log. I assume you made the actual switch earlier.
The stone works would of course have sped up the temple, some people don't realize that a stone works not only adds a hammer to every stone, but also one in the town centre. Getting a stone works in first would have made everything after easier.

But I also mention changing builds because I like to work towards a rule that players don't switch builds lightly. It's new to me, in Civ III you simply couldn't do it without complete loss of the hammers, in Civ 5 you now can, but I'm not fond of it in an SG. Mostly we are switching builds because we are having a slightly difference preference, which is simply always going to happen in a team.
The save I got had 2 unfinished builds in them, a library in Maung Saluang and a water mill in Sukhothai. I finished those builds and passed on a clean save, but already our save is collecting unfinished builds again.
I like to suggest a rule that we only change a build because of changing circumstances, for instance we get an unexpected war declaration against us, or a new build option comes in.
Or perhaps a rule that if we abandon a build, we at least have to finish another one.
We shouldn't do switching builds as easily as switching citizens. Unfinished builds are lost hammers as long as the building doesn't get finished, and it commits players who have to play later. If you get a save with lots of unfinished builds, you more or less have to finish those builds and forget about making choices of your own, or the hammers will get completely lost at some stage.
I believe a rule of not switching builds because of just a different preference will keep things simple and also leave us more free in the end.

I also wrote a piece 'What is a Succession Game' yesterday, where I warn against switching builds. I hope I'm not living on a planet of my own? I'm certainly open to comments from others on this.
I'm not criticizing any person in particular by the way, I hope that's clear. The players playing now haven't got much to do with this. I would have said it earlier or later anyway.

Back to the current save, I'm not sure it's great to keep a scientist hanging around for a long spell. Why not have him discover the most expensive tech available just now? I see that's not a tech that means a lot to us now, but we need all techs anyway, and the exact timing of Chemistry will probably not be that essential. Some longbows will do before artillery.
Chemistry is still 6 techs away, that's a long time for a scientist to be useless and just costing maintenance. Maintenance is a constant constraint when in military campaigns on higher levels.
Also our workers are at the moment just costing maintenance, by the way. 3 of them are working on a 5-stretch road to a 2-citizen town, which isn't economical yet, the other 2 are working on trade posts that we won't be working in the foreseeable future, with so many river-farms not even being worked yet. I suggest to disband at least one worker.

Between Notre Dame and Porcelain Tower it's Notre Dame that is the most flexible build. I agree with NotSure that if we plan to sweep across the map it's the best one.
If we stay on our own sub-continent, which would mean not going for domination, but diplo/science, then Porcelain Tower might be better - with putting money in RA's, of course.
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Old Mar 18, 2012, 04:54 AM   #262
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This is a BIG continent to just "sweep", we are in a corner of a massive map by standard standards. I think domination is off the wall, sure we can do it, but all that tedious work...

GS should bulb machinery, so we can take over our corner of the world before Lizzy gets longbows, which of course would help us with unit costs if she did. If we can take a city or two from her, then we can set our sight on Ghandi.

And Optional, I got the save with building units only option as prediscussed, so I didn't even look there. Next time I will.
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Old Mar 18, 2012, 05:56 AM   #263
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OK... The road to Hastings started as a route for units to get into position and extract/replace units if necessary. After you're paying maintenance on three tiles you might as well build 2 more and get the happiness & trade route income, right? That city had 5 citizens when we took it and I'd bet it builds a granary (2 granary resources nearby) and/or water mill soon to support the 3 gem tiles. I'm certainly open to some constructive criticism, but I don't think that road is a major concern.

I support the suggestion that we should work together and not constantly change the build orders. I think this would be a little easier if we put our heads together for a grand strategy and then made realistic decisions to further that strategy. It has felt like we've been playing different strategies between players at times.

Goz, the domination route does get a little tedious, but it's certainly doable. Please tell me what way you would like to win the game. It sounds like you want to win a diplomacy or science victory? Great! In fact, any victory you all would like to pursue is great by me. But, bulbing machinery isn't the most efficient way to get either of those victories.

If we would like to use some special rules, that's cool too. I'm ok with never changing a build and if we don't want to save GS that's fine too, but I think it's pretty clear those special rules would only satisfy player preference, not optimal play. Let's get some agreement on these things or a ruling from Optional.
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Old Mar 18, 2012, 05:56 AM   #264
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I agree Notre Dame and bulbing machinery.
If we start attacking people then research agreements become a liability as we never know when somebody decides to hate us. We won't have many friends.

We can get science by the cities we take. It seems we are going for an expansionist policy doesn't it? Warring against Elizabeth probably means this, but we didn't have much choice considering how hemmed in we were and how fast Elizabeth was growing. I also think that leaving idle GS too long is kind of immersion breaking. Machinery is not a mega tech to bulb but it's not bad. Sad thing is, crossbows and NE will not be good vs longbows, but we can cripple Elizabeth before she gets them.

Now I am not used to domination games in general and immortal is new to me. I've been playing some immortal games lately and there just isn't much flexibility in viable playstyles like on King/emperor. So I really have to defer to you guys, this is a training for me. In my immortal games America were always very powerful and bought all the city states so fast. Maybe that's just coincidence though.
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Old Mar 18, 2012, 07:44 AM   #265
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I'm certainly open to some constructive criticism, but I don't think that road is a major concern.
No, that wasn't the point I was trying to make. I was speaking about unit maintenance, saying that we hardly needed our workers. Already in my set I was considering disbanding one. If the road's finished - it should just finish - that could still happen. Up to Grandad, of course.

I think indeed America is going to be big. I always see AI's on tundra doing well. I'm not sure about buying City States, because they attacked one, so they seem to have a different CS policy. But I always see at least one or two civs getting rich and buying influence everywhere.
Trying to control most of our sub-continent would have been a strategy with any win condition.

I believe we're working very well as a team. The route Great Library > Civil Service, beeline to Chivalry > attack England required a coordinated effort and we did that well.
Any concern I have with unfinished builds is a general concern, we haven't had issues in this game.
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Old Mar 18, 2012, 08:53 AM   #266
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It's true that the number of optimal strategies gets pretty limited on the higher difficulties. The game gets a little rough in the late rounds too if you don't tech wisely. Pikes and archers are one thing, fighters and nukes quite another.

If we staff the Wats we're about to get and sign just 3 RA (assuming we took the PT and timed them to mature at the end of the Medieval techs) we could be building cannons in just a little over the time it would take us to hard-tech Machinery. We may have to slow down to get our happiness together, but if we want to continue on with Gandhi and Ramesses, cannons are going to be very important.

Oh, one other thing... if my math is right, building either Porcelain Tower or Notre Dame in the capital is only 13 turns.
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Old Mar 18, 2012, 08:59 AM   #267
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I believe we're working very well as a team. The route Great Library > Civil Service, beeline to Chivalry > attack England required a coordinated effort and we did that well.
Any concern I have with unfinished builds is a general concern, we haven't had issues in this game.
Yes, we did have a strong start. Maybe it's just my guilty conscience.
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Old Mar 18, 2012, 06:52 PM   #268
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I've been commenting way too much in my recent posts, I also saw there wasn't a citizen on an unimproved tile, as I said, so I've been nitpicking over non-existing things. Ah well, everybody's gotta have a hobby.

What I haven't been outspoken about yet is Machinery. You may certainly pick that, Grandad, but I'm never going to believe that'll be a breakthrough tech for us.
Longbows will offer a bit of assistance, but they're quite expensive for what they're doing, their window is short and they upgrade badly. I find them only making a big difference with extra range, and after that, logistics. But we didn't build a single archer and only our scout-archer would reach those promotions in a foreseeable time.

Cannons > artillery is a more durable line, but further away. Although if we're looking towards that, it leaves us more time for building markets. We'll need them at some stage, not necessarily straight away, but building longbows will mean an extra cost, as it pushes markets further ahead.
If this was a solo game of mine I would settle for Acoustics or Banking with the scientist, as those happen to be the most expensive techs just now, although I wouldn't have any plans with those techs. Please make your own decision, though, the team's opinion is mixed.

A question I would like to ask if whether it would be interesting to annex Hastings with the objective of getting a free Wat there. The town came with a library, it's building a monument just now (I believe every puppet town always does that first), so if we get a temple there as well - it probably needs to be bought - it qualifies for a Wat if we take the town in our own hands.
It's now a size 2 town, but it has all the potential to become a powerful core town. We would probably get a spell of unhappiness until a courthouse would be finished there if we take Coventry in the same period, but that would just be temporary.
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Old Mar 19, 2012, 12:53 AM   #269
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NotSure, I didn't say we shouldn't go for domination, it was just the map layout that made me comment it. Of course we can do it, but it will be a slugfest to get there. (Who's talking, the civ3 veteran where everything was a slugfest on 5CC and Deity )

I simply stated that crossbows (not longbows Optional) would help us kill off Lizzy and Ghandi quicker. But if we feel we have enough stuff to take them on now, by all means, let's do it.

Markets are very important in any way we want to win, so I suppose IF we can win our part of the continent with what we have, we might as well concentrate on infrastructural buildings.

Good point about Hastings, I like the idea if we have the money to buy the courthouse and the temple, then pop the SP for the free buildings.
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Old Mar 19, 2012, 12:59 AM   #270
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And again, changing buildings during a game isn't exactly uncommon, maybe we just bold it for the next player from now on.

I changed the build of barracks to build a temple. Please switch back when it's done.

Something like that. Sometimes I'm in a rush to play a set in my own games, but I usually scribble some notes down, so I can refer to it even if I didn't play for 3 days.
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Old Mar 19, 2012, 05:48 AM   #271
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I simply stated that crossbows (not longbows Optional)
Ah, longbows were in Civ III, weren't they? Me mixed up!
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Old Mar 19, 2012, 11:27 AM   #272
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Hmmm. Division.

So this is what I've decided.

GEng will go on Notre Dame. We could use the happiness pretty soon in our war effort and I just don't see us using many RAs. We're likely pissing off the AIs and we're going for GSci with our Wat strategy so they can pick up the slack. If you have any stron objections please let me know before Tuesday 6pm GMT.

I'll leave the GSci as I'd rather us it on a tech we want. Disbanding a worker or 2 will pay for the leaving it around. Also no concrete answer from the team makes me hesitate. I normally would wait in my off line games.Any strong objection let me know by 6pm GMT on Tuesday.

The rest is just infrastructure/finishing builds and pressing the war.
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Old Mar 19, 2012, 12:07 PM   #273
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No objections from me, I'm looking forward to your set. Good luck!
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Old Mar 20, 2012, 12:45 AM   #274
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No objections from me either.

Haha, I love bold.

Make the best of it, grandad.
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Old Mar 20, 2012, 12:46 AM   #275
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Ah, longbows were in Civ III, weren't they? Me mixed up!
Only Lizzy will have those nasty Longbows soon, that's why I try to hurry our own crossbows. But we win anyways.
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Old Mar 20, 2012, 10:04 AM   #276
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Annexing cities is a pretty good strategy for domination games. Annexing Hastings soon seems like a really good idea to me too. That city has great production potential, especially after Fertilizer. The temple is 500 gold, but seems worth it for a free Wat. I'd just be careful not to buy it too soon so as to be sure the next social policy doesn't come before the prerequisite buildings are finished in all of our cities.

No objections to your plans Grandad.
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Old Mar 20, 2012, 10:12 AM   #277
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No objections from me either your honour.
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Old Mar 20, 2012, 11:12 AM   #278
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All aboard!!

Off to play then.
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Old Mar 20, 2012, 11:20 AM   #279
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No objections from me either.

Haha, I love bold.
Ah, you weren't that bold yet with our Naresuans in your set, though.

Apart from calling crossbows longbows, I think I've also been speaking about chopping wood for 10 hammers earlier in this thread, so it appears Civ III is not completely out of my system yet.
Newton, anyone?
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Old Mar 20, 2012, 03:49 PM   #280
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PFT

Si Sat. I move a citizen from CdP to a mine. I also Move the Stoneworks ahead of the Temple so as to avoid possible timing issues with annexing Hastings.

Muang. I decide to let the Market finish before starting a Circus. I rework tiles for more food and production.

I sell Washington 2 horses for 90

As a side note please don't queue techs even if we agreed on the techs in question! You can lose turns like this if things change and people don't notice!


1

Education is in. We start Construction.
Spoiler:



One of my screens didn't upload properly here



We get our GSci and he goes to sleep near Sukho (don't worry i wake him at the end of the set).

I disband a worker near Hastings.


2

Trade route to Hastings Complete.

I'm moving our troops west. In hindsight I over did this and should have moved some north as well.


3

IBT USA asks us to DoW Egypt in 10. I say no.

Construction is in and we start Engineering.
Spoiler:





OB from Rammy runs out and I don't renew it.

A pick that escaped by sea from Hastings lands west of the nearby mountain and I take him out. My first kill of the war. BOOM!

What else.....?

Oh yeah.

Sukho, Hagia > Temple! We take the GEng.
Spoiler:





4

IBT Warsaw recognise our GEng and we get 40 influence so I don't drop any money on them. This happened the same turn we stopped being allies so all good.

IBT England denounces Egypt.

I use our GEng to rush Notre Dame in Sukho. I realised we never discussed where we were going to do this.


5

IBT a pike kills a warrior that was guarding the rear of our NEs moving on Coventry. Two Elephants teach him the error of his ways.

Oda won't re-buy our OB.

Our scout finds an unguarded worker in a barb camp. Score! I return the worker to Suleiman and he likes us for it.
Spoiler:




Sukho, Notre Dame > Temple
Spoiler:





6

IBT India and Egypt sign an RA.

IBT Cathy and Rammy peace out.

One of our NEs gets medic.

I sell Ivory and OB to Cathy for 227 and 2gpt.

We meet Venice. They are martime, irrational and have whales.

Sukho, Temple > Archer

7

Muang, Market > Circus

We start the attack on Coventry. I could have started a turn or two ago but was a bit over cautious.


8

IBT Suleiman denounces Liz and comes by to tell us he likes us as we hate her too.

Engineering > Machinery
Spoiler:





We capture Coventry and puppet.
Spoiler:




Troops are heading north towards York.

Hastings is annexed and a Temple and Courthouse rush brought. This puts the next SP back by several turns. Forgot the exact amount. I let it carry on with the market but probably should have started a food building.
Spoiler:




Sukho, Archer > Market. It pays for the upkeep of a Wat.


9

IBT asks to peace out. She'll give us all her cities but I say no. We want you capital Liz!

I resell our OB to Washington, Gandhi and Rammy. None give us full price but cash is cash IMO.

Si Sat, Temple > Market. Again it'll pay for a Wats upkeep.


10

Gandhi builds the Himeji castle. Something to bear in mind if/when we attack him.

I sell Gandhi our spare gems. he's the only one who wants them and only gives us 189


Info

Demo screen
Spoiler:




Our Empire
Spoiler:




Not much more to add here except to say a Golden Age starts next turn, the GSci is awake (I woke him in the last turn) and that I'm sad I don't get to pop the Wats in my set.

Not sure what the roster is....

The save
Attached Files
File Type: civ5save SiamSG-120.Civ5Save (940.3 KB, 5 views)
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