Advertisement
Civilization Fanatics' Center

Go Back   Civilization Fanatics' Forums > CIVILIZATION II > Civ2 - Strategy & Tips

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old Apr 11, 2012, 07:11 AM   #1
KingPoseidon
Chieftain
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2
Winning by space race - countering AI counter-moves

I've been playing Civ 2 on Playstation recently, and keep being “frustrated” in the same way.

My strategy has followed basic guides written here: build lots of cities early, make a science/trade city, build wonders, advance science. As a result, I always have the largest, most prosperous, and most technologically advanced empire coming into the industrial age.

Assuming I then concentrate on tech growth rather than world conquest, set my science rate as high as possible, and try to boost city output, three things happen:
1) enemy AI's become aggressive,
2) enemy AI's start stealing technology (either with diplomats or by taking border cities with overwhelming force),
3) enemy AI's beat me in the space race by somehow running off a module/component/structural from every city each turn.

Since space updates don't follow Manufacturing Plant by very much – I usually can't run off space components at anything like the AI's rate. Even at full production capacity with Plant, Factory and Hoover Dam, most cities only run off Structurals in 2-3 turns, Components in 5-6, and this isn't going to catch the computer up if it's launching the turn it discovers/steals Superconductor.

When I have a lot of cities, the computer seems to target them very efficiently. Favourite tricks include coastal bombardment, nuking then paratroops, and diplomats.

The third of these seems to be an effect of the AI “cheating” on wonders which is mentioned elsewhere.

Is this beatable?

I'm wondering if:

A) I need to stop advancing tech/production so quickly, and concentrate on money and units
B) I should be further ahead in the tech race by the time I get to space race
C) I should be building defensive/military improvements before advancing production
D) I need to advance money instead of science, to rush-build stuff

or something else I've not thought of? Basically, how are other people winning the space race?
KingPoseidon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 11, 2012, 04:09 PM   #2
Major Advantage
Warlord
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Germany
Posts: 290
Hi Poseidon!

I don't know anything about the AI hostility in the PS-version, maybe somebody could say something about that.
But did you know you can switch the city-production back and forth between wonders and spaceship-parts? So when you are approaching Apollo and spaceship-construction, you should keep stockpile vans that will pay off less than 200g and food vans and put them into your spaceship.
You shouldn't put too much effort into production increase, rather rushbuy vans (and ships to establish ship-chains) and ship them over for trading with distant AI-cities.
Major Advantage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 12, 2012, 12:06 AM   #3
Valka D'Ur
Hosting Iron Pen in A&E
 
Valka D'Ur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Red Deer, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 10,308
Gender: Female
It also helps to attack and conquer your spaceship-building enemy's capital city...

To counter enemy diplomats, build your own units (Spies, if possible) and keep them in your cities. You can use them to bribe or turn back enemy diplomats so they can't steal your tech or commit sabotage.

You do have a comprehensive Railroad system in place by the time you start building spaceships, right? You need that to quickly get your Freight units around the continents so they can help with building Wonders or spaceship components.
Valka D'Ur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 13, 2012, 09:25 AM   #4
KingPoseidon
Chieftain
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 2
I've probably been under-using trading - that may be the problem. At what point in the game should I be concentrating on trade routes, and what should I do if neighbouring civs are hostile and stop me getting caravans/ships out?

I always have railroads but might be neglecting to deploy spies in the right places. Sometimes the AI seems to target cities I hadn't thought of as vulnerable, i.e. nuke-paradrop on coastal cities away from the frontline. I thought of taking out the capital but advanced AI's seem to just relocate their capital if I do that.
KingPoseidon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 13, 2012, 04:27 PM   #5
stoferb
Warlord
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 245
I can only tell you how I used to do it. First of all there's a magical date in civ2 when suddenly diplomacy gets much trickier and that is the year 1750 AD. Before that date you are relatively free to demand money and tech, after that any demand of tribute almost inevitably leads to a declaration of war (if your power is "supreme" which it ought to be). Also, after that turn the AI will start to gang up on you and sneak attacks gets way more common.

It's not enough to build up your own civilization, you gotta make sure that the other civs remain weak. You do this by only trading with one of their cities (so that you have many good cities but they have only one), by early warfare, by demanding as much gold and tech you can get away with, by diplomats and spies stealing tech, subverting their units and cities. By bribing them into war and finally by hogging almost all wonders of the world for yourself (which is easy, just keep producing caravans and freights and you will get most wonders, atleast the important ones).

Trade is the key for winning space and you should start as early as possible, as soon as you are in monarchy which is your first tech priority, trade is your second and from there on you build caravans and freights, for establishing trade routes, to earn money and beakers and to hurry wonders which you keep on doing for the rest of the game. And if an ai tries to stop you, you wait for it to foolishly suicide against strategically placed forts and cities while searching for another trade target. And even if you are at war, you can still send caravans into their city (make sure to build a fort nearby first and place a couple of good defenders there, the ai will suicide against that too, again making themselves weaker while you become stronger).

You should always have diplomats or spies ready so that you can take back whatever your opponents take from you, after caravans spies are the most overpowered unit in the game. I once prevented a nuclear war because I constantly sent spies to destroy the persian attempt to build the manhattan project until I had SDI's in all my cities, after that all but one persian nuke were wasted (It was a conquered city so basically the persians in that game nuked themselves).
stoferb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 14, 2012, 01:39 PM   #6
Jokemaster
Insert something here
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 227
What I would recommend is to expand like crazy early on using a ''got a size 2 city? here's a settler to be built'' style (and when cities are size 2, set them to work forest, or some other shield-heavy square, so they can churn out settlers quicker. Go back to food when cities are size 1). Then, make sure to build the Hanging Gardens (using caravans of course) to control unrest. If you can get Pyramids, even better, but they're lower priority. Use Warriors for crowd control.

Gun for Monarchy, then build Michelangelo's Chapel (Monotheism). Then switch to Republic and pump up the luxury rate so your cities enter celebration mode (when a city size 3+ celebrates in Republic and Democracy, it grows 1 population point every turn provided it stays in celebration and has a food surplus) It's very powerful when 30 size 3 cities turn in size 8 game-winners after seven turns in the early AD years. Then, slide the LUX rate back down to a manageable rate and focus on cash for vans or a ship chain/science (whichever is your priority right now)

Then, it's basically what the others said. Trade a lot (republic/democracy helps with the arrows) keep expanding, keep celebrating, build all the useful wonders, and they won't even be a bother at the end.
__________________
If you don't understand me, it's not anyone's fault. Sometimes I don't even understand myself.
Jokemaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 15, 2012, 04:35 PM   #7
Ali Ardavan
Mathematician
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 2,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingPoseidon View Post
... set my science rate as high as possible
as hight as possible is overdoing it and is only the absolute rule if you are trying to achieve all 255 future techs. Otherwise you should set it reasonably high, with enough in lux to keep your cities growing via celebration and enough in taxes to allow you rushbuying in synch with your growth. My science rate is rarely above 60%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingPoseidon View Post
I usually can't run off space components at anything like the AI's rate. Even at full production capacity with Plant, Factory and Hoover Dam, most cities only run off Structurals in 2-3 turns, Components in 5-6, and this isn't going to catch ...
As others have already mentioned you should be using vans to speed the process up. Your smaller cities should be producing vans. Furthermore, Manufacturring plants are often not worth their direct and indirect (pollution) cost. (Unless you are playing OCC.) With Factories and Hoover dam most full size cities produce 40+ shields and that is sufficient.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingPoseidon View Post
When I have a lot of cities, the computer seems to target them very efficiently. Favourite tricks include coastal bombardment, nuking then paratroops, and diplomats.
Indeed, the AI is much smarter about modern warfare than it is about ancient warfare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingPoseidon View Post
Is this beatable?
Come on over to the GOTM forum and see how we beat the AI consistently against formidable odds and extra advantages given to the AI at outset. In general joining the GOTMs is the best way to learn to play the game super well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingPoseidon View Post
I've probably been under-using trading - that may be the problem. At what point in the game should I be concentrating on trade routes, and what should I do if neighbouring civs are hostile and stop me getting caravans/ships out?
You probably are underusing trade, which is arguably the most powerful aspect of the game. You should be concentrating on trade as soon as you have cities producing 10 or more arrows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoferb View Post
I can only tell you how I used to do it. First of all there's a magical date in civ2 when suddenly diplomacy gets much trickier and that is the year 1750 AD.
I could be wrong, but I think it is not the date but rather the dawn of the space age that brings the hostility. It usually starts when you achieve Flight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoferb View Post
It's not enough to build up your own civilization, you gotta make sure that the other civs remain weak. You do this by only trading with one of their cities (so that you have many good cities but they have only one), by early warfare, by demanding as much gold and tech you can get away with, by diplomats and spies stealing tech, subverting their units and cities. By bribing them into war and finally by hogging almost all wonders of the world for yourself
Doing all of these are not necessary, not achiveable at higher difficulty levels, and can be counter productive. Trade bonus depends a great deal on whether a commodity is in demand or not. Ignoring that because you want to trade with only 1 enemy city hurts you more than the enemy. You cannot make demands on rivals once you are in Republic or Democracy. Delaying those for the sole purpose of bullying your rivals hurts you more. You rarely need to steal techs from rivals and in Republic/Democracy it can cause your government to collapse which is rarely worth a tech.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoferb View Post
Trade is the key for winning space
Trade is the key for winning the game, regardless of your strategy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stoferb View Post
And even if you are at war, you can still send caravans into their city (make sure to build a fort nearby first and place a couple of good defenders there, the ai will suicide against that too, again making themselves weaker while you become stronger).
You can directly deliver from a ship, so delivering to coastal cities is much easier. For inland cities the technic stoferb mentions is fine, but it is often easier to make peace. Spend your money below 50g and meet with them. They will ask for techs. Give it to them.
Ali Ardavan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Apr 21, 2012, 09:53 PM   #8
Sir_Lancelot
Emperor
 
Sir_Lancelot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,384
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingPoseidon View Post
When I have a lot of cities, the computer seems to target them very efficiently. Favourite tricks include coastal bombardment, nuking then paratroops, and diplomats.
Holy Moses! What difficulty are you playing on? I've only played at the middle setting and I've never seen that, I look forward to higher levels!
I think the AI is lame and helpless, I play on PC.


Quote:
The third of these seems to be an effect of the AI “cheating” on wonders which is mentioned elsewhere.
The AI don't cheat?
__________________


The world is not enough...
Sir_Lancelot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jun 21, 2012, 09:57 AM   #9
ZanzibarZim
Chieftain
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In a Grass Hut
Posts: 38
One thing you might try is to build a few nukes yourself. I always build 3 ICBMs and position them in safe cities with good defense and an SDI. I don't know about the Playstation version, but for the old CivII, Mutually Assured Destruction works.

I only got nuked once when I had a nuclear deterrent of my own.

Also, try the technique of switching between building wonders and building spaceship components. Start building the Wonder well in advance of when the spaceship module becomes available. Adding caravans and freights helps this, too.
ZanzibarZim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Nov 29, 2012, 02:17 PM   #10
Blasph23
Warlord
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 216
Images: 1
Trade, trade, trade, like mentioned in previous posts.
Another aspect is building 1-2 engineers per city and transforming some of the non-shielded grassland into hills, then building mines.

If done right early on, it gives you around 50-64 shields per city of pure production in the immediate post-industrial period (maxed cities in terms of population+factories+hoover dam) which translates directly to 2 turns for structurals, 3 for components and 5 for modules (for 64+ shield cities).

I tend to build some cities that are industry oriented (inland, lots of grass and 5-6 hills preferably with coal special, which overall gives you 1 turn structures, 2 turn components and 4 turn modules) - around 3-4 depending on the size of my civ, which usually oscillates around 18-24 cities. Coastal cities are more food/trade oriented, possibly with rivers and specials that give extra trade. One of them will usually be the SSC or STC.

I prefer closed continents, not shared with other civs, but when I'm faced with an enemy on the same land, I usually build cities so that I have a choke point with well connected city that absorbs the brunt of the attacks.
Also trading with cities on other lands is more profitable, until you get all the trade related improvements and begin extensive internal trade between your own cities.

Like someone mentioned, build a lot of spies to prevent hostile espionage - they have no upkeep and cost only 30 shields, so all of your cities should be able to build them 1 per turn at the time you discover the respective tech.
2 vet spies or 3 normal per city almost ensure safety from tech stealing, but there's always a small chance...
Another thing is, if you just discovered for example plastics, and have 20+ other technologies that nobody else has, then there's a 100% chance that the next successful enemy tech theft will target that tech.
It's probably one of those cheating mechanisms supposed to make AI competitive, but only results in producing sudden outbursts of rage in human player, especially after 25 game reloads with EXACTLY THE SAME OUTCOME, every damn time. If tech theft is successful, plastics simply gets stolen first no matter what other techs you might have that they don't have.

Also you might want to check out conservative spaceship builds - 29 structures, 16 components and 3 modules give you 7,1 years of flight time with fusion power. 18/10/3 give you 14,4 years.
Sometimes there's a higher chance to win by sending smaller but faster ship because by the time you build the big one, enemies catch up with you tech-wise and outbuild you.
I usually play on king difficulty and I have yet to be defeated by the enemy in space race. As for emperor and deity, additional, more specialized techniques have to be implemented to be successful in this

Last edited by Blasph23; Nov 29, 2012 at 02:24 PM.
Blasph23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 01, 2012, 09:40 PM   #11
Ali Ardavan
Mathematician
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 2,163
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blasph23 View Post
Another aspect is building 1-2 engineers per city and transforming some of the non-shielded grassland into hills, then building mines.

If done right early on, it gives you around 50-64 shields per city of pure production in the immediate post-industrial period (maxed cities in terms of population+factories+hoover dam) which translates directly to 2 turns for structurals, 3 for components and 5 for modules (for 64+ shield cities).
Turning non-shielded grass into hills is neither necessary nor efficient use of engineers. If a city desperately needs additional shields to reach a proper multiple (like 40) then mine the grass to forest which is far quicker and only one shield less productive than a hill; it does not need to be mined either. Just mining the hill takes as long as it takes to turn the grass into forest.

Most of your cities, inland or not (use offshore platform for coastal ones), should be able to make it to around 40 shields with factory and Hoover. Those who reach 50 should be used for producing vans which can then be fed to other cities producing space ship parts. Above 50 is not very useful in a normal game, but in OCC the best to shoot for is 65 (with manufacturing plant). Cities that produce in high 60s and above produce pollution even with mass transit and recycling center. Cleaning up pollution takes valuable time off from your busy engineers and should be avoided.

To better learn the game, join the GOTMs. There is no better way to learn. GOTMs 138 and 139 are on now.
Ali Ardavan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Dec 03, 2012, 03:36 PM   #12
Blasph23
Warlord
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 216
Images: 1
I still think that transforming unshielded grass into hills is viable.

If you aim at maximizing the effectiveness of every element in the game then be my guest, I prefer a more relaxed approach where I tend to use some features of the game as they were meant to be used, such as mentioned terraforming. Plus I also think that 80 shield cities are useful and it would be somewhat more difficult to achieve that production with forests alone while maintaining reasonable population.

OP doesn't seem like the kind of guy that will get into the tiny details anytime soon, so if he does use terrain transform like I explained, then there won't be that much removed value from his overall game experience or final score.

Eventually if he figures out it's sufficiently ineffective to prompt a change, he will return and ask about it again or figure it out on his own. The main idea behind my post was that he should give the terrain improvement aspect a closer look to see what can be improved regarding his cities' lack of productivity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ali Ardavan View Post
Above 50 is not very useful in a normal game
On the contrary, above 50 is very useful in normal game. It allows you to produce mechanized infantry in one turn which is obviously the best late game defender. 70 allows you to produce howitzers every turn which is again very useful for someone who likes modern warfare in Civ2. 80 is a nice value as you can produce space ship structures every turn, components every second turn as well as 1-turn stealth fighters - another extremely useful late-game unit.

Another thing: vans used to speed up building SS parts - personally I think there's too much micromanagement involved. I think it's better to simply produce more vans earlier for trade and science bonuses and when sufficient technological lead is established with that, build the spaceship at your own pace, with no need to rush as the enemy is still trying to discover rocketry/computers/automobile etc.

OP requires more general advice like trade a lot, improve terrain, build spies to protect techs, proper city placement and so on, not maximum efficiency early landing strategy advice, because he can't possibly pull that kind of game at this stage. Maybe in a year if he has enough games, but surely not at this point.

Ali Ardavan I think you've played too many deity+ games and now you look at every possible element of the game seeking improvement. That's nice and fine if you aim at competing against other players with similar knowledge of the game mechanics but for most players, less would be enough I think, they only need the most important things, and don't have to fight for every arrow and shield in the city window from antiquity to 21st century.

Last edited by Blasph23; Dec 03, 2012 at 03:43 PM.
Blasph23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Feb 04, 2013, 04:34 PM   #13
Millman
Mark the Magnificent
 
Millman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Emeraldy
Posts: 953
The U.N. and Apollo are the last two wonders I build. I explained what I do in my low down topic.
__________________
-Greatermaxim

CVII-Magnificent ruler of 956%(9560) Emperor Level.

It's over 9000!
Millman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old Jul 19, 2013, 05:22 AM   #14
novaquasar
Chieftain
 
novaquasar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 11
Take as many cities as possible early on. This will give you a huge technological advantage. Don't have science maxed out either, always have ample gold for a quick purchase. Build a lot of wonders then once you hit Mobile Warfare take cities quickly again. Then once you have Superconductor, Apollo program/ space flight, and plastics then switch to fundamentalism. use the excess gold to buy the ss parts you need. This will keep the AI's at bay. This almost always work.
I usually do the bloodlust goal but this is the best way to win scientifically.
novaquasar is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Go Back Civilization Fanatics' Forums > CIVILIZATION II > Civ2 - Strategy & Tips > Winning by space race - countering AI counter-moves

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Advertisement

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
This site is copyright © Civilization Fanatics' Center.
Support CFC: Amazon.com | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon CA | Amazon FR