Tradition Rework

[TheHanzou]

Tradition is, in the same way as honor, currently pretty bad as a first choice, and even worse as a second one. Compared to Liberty, both policiy trees are severely underpowered and lacking.

Lets first look at what makes liberty so good:

0. Liberty is constructed around the idea of fast expansion and a big empire.

1. Well thought out short term/instant benefits: Free worker, free settler, golden age, free production, free great person.

Early on, this is a huge advantage. It allows for very fast expansion and production, and most of the time a wonder rush (golden Age into wonder is just as good as tradition, free engineer is basically a free Notre Dame or similar)

2. Good Long term scalability: Cheaper settlers, faster workers, %based production,%based happiness.

These scale very well with big empired and more cities, perfectly emphacizing what liberty is about.

3.Versatility: In terms of progression, liberty offers a lot of choice.

Need happiness? go meritocracy. Need gold/wonder rush? go representation. Settler first or worker first? Great Person? Take what u want/need/fits your style. Lots of choices and all are viable and allow for a different take on early game strategy.


My ideas for tradition evolve around the same premisse and focus on bringing it on par with the liberty branch:

0. Tradition is based around small empires, with few but potent cities.
1. Well thought out short term/instant benefits
2. Good Long term scalability
3. Versatility

Now ill explain why tradition sucks and how to improve it in my opinion: (policy names are subject to change, this is only to represent their position in the tree)

Opener: Culture and border growth, perfectly good as is
Finisher: One of the better things in the tree, but no comparison to a free GP.

CHANGE:+ 1Population,+2Food,+10% growth in your first 4 cities
REASON: More focus on a small empire, much better short term benefit with slightly worse long term scaling. A finisher needs to have a direct and noticable impact.


Aristocracy: good long term perspective, but no short term benefit at all.

CHANGE: +4 Food, +2 Population in the capital
REASON: This has to bring tradition on par with a free settler/worker in the first 20 turns, and i think it does. On top of that it is not at the end of the tree anymore. huge improvement.

Oligarchy: horrible, absolutely horrible. You cant use it to get a monument with anything but france, since you need to build it first anyway. On top of that you lose the benefit if u dont have the next tech but already have a monument. If you want to go full tradition, this is almost 100% of the time since u want the growth asap but cant get it. Essentially 3 Monuments in your next 3 cities, but you aint getting a settler anytime soon so it totally sucks!

CHANGE:+1Happiness for every 2 pop in your Capital, and +1happiness,+1culture for every 10 pop in a city
REASON: This is a rework of the happiness in tradition with both short term and long term effects, and basically a roadblock to eat up one policy so that you cant get all cumulative benefits at once very early.

Legalism: Also absolutely horrible. The Upkeep is barely noticable with few cities and on top of that u lose it when u go to war. Useless early since you have to protect your workers and scout the area, nearly no impact later. The higher city damage is ok but not really worth a whole policy.

CHANGE: Garnison no Upkeep,+3 city strength,+50%Ranged Combat with garison
REASON: Still not very good, but now its a choice for when you are rushed or pressured, not just a pretty much useless placeholder to get the full tree. Offers more versatility and short term benefit.

Monarchy: this is good but gets incorporated differently to allow for a stronger and more diverse tree.
CHANGE: +1Gold for every 2 pop in your capital, and your Puppets create 33% more Gold and 33% less unhappiness.
REASON: Nice short term and long term benefit while focusing more on the strenght of the tree: a small empire.

Landed Elite: The only descent short term benefit in the whole tree and its at the very end of it! Not bad but completly missplaced. Reworked.

CHANGE: Now gives+10% wonder production and +2Production in your first four 4 cities.
REASON: Bigger benefits allow for more a more potent empire with few cities.


With these changes the new tradition tree is a lot more focused and viable, while offering more choices.



TL;DR. New Tradition tree looks like this:

Finisher: +1Pop,+2Food,+10%Growth in your first 4 cities
Aristocracy: +4 Food, +2 Pop in the capital
Legalism: Garnison no Upkeep,+3 city strength,+50%Ranged Combat with garison
Oligarchy:+1Happiness for every 2 pop in your Capital, and +1happiness,+1culture for every 10 pop in a city
Monarchy: +1Gold for every 2 pop in your capital, and your Puppets create 33% more Gold and 33% less unhappiness.
Landed Elite: Now gives+10% wonder production and +2Production in your first 4 cities.

I am currently working on a similar rework for the honor tree.

[Kaosprophet]

Originally Posted by TheHanzou

Tradition is, in the same way as honor, currently pretty bad as a first choice, and even worse as a second one. Compared to Liberty, both policiy trees are severely underpowered and lacking.

Is the problem really with Tradition, or is it a decent policy that just pales in contrast to Liberty?

Also, you got Oligarchy and Legalism backwards.

Originally Posted by TheHanzou

Monarchy: this is good but gets incorporated differently to allow for a stronger and more diverse tree.
CHANGE: +1Gold for every 2 pop in your capital, and your Puppets create 33% more Gold and 33% less unhappiness.

Boosts to puppets should really go into Honor, not Tradition, IMO - it suits the intention of Honor a bit more. And if anything, Honor is the one that needs a boost and Liberty needs a bit of a nerf (again IMO.)

[chazzycat]

I agree there shouldn't be any boosts to puppets under tradition.

OP, I think you have summarized the problem pretty well though. Liberty is just too good right now to consider tradition, unless its OCC. I'd rather they buff tradition rather than nerf liberty.

One way to do that would be to switch legalism & landed elite around. That would at least allow you to time legalism however you want, without delaying the other good policies (landed elite/monarchy).

[TheHanzou]

Liberty is definitely not overpowered, it feels just right. I think the other trees are just underpowered.

With tradition its simply that 2/5 of policies are outright useless and growth is too far in the back.

with honor its similar, the trees are just so badly constructed that theres not much of a choice, anything but liberty is not worth it, and thats not liberties fault, the problems are obvious.

That said i got told that 2 pop and 4food is to much, so im changing it to 2food,1pop,5%growth. My take on honor is not that its especially a warmongering tree, we have one of that. Its just focused on military(-units and -buildings) and Honor. I want to make it a viable choice compared to liberty.

My reasoning for puppet buffs was (1) that i want tradition to use puppets when waging war, not court houses, because then it would still be a relatively small empire when considering culture and production etc (and besides that noone uses puppets anymore, which is a shame), and (2) that it fits well with the background of oligarchy.

[Kaosprophet]

Originally Posted by TheHanzou

Liberty is definitely not overpowered, it feels just right. I think the other trees are just underpowered.

To me (discipline aside) Honor feels at least close to right for an early policy. A few tweaks in the structure is all it would really need. But a free settler, free worker and free wonder are just too hard to pass up for much of anything. Honestly, even if Rationalism - which is definitely a good policy - were available from the start I'd still be putting it off in favor of Liberty. It's everything you want out of an early policy - the tools to set up an empire - but put all together and denied to everyone else...

(Note: that's "putting it off," not "neglecting it entirely.")

Originally Posted by TheHanzou

With tradition its simply that 2/5 of policies are outright useless and growth is too far in the back.

I can only think of one policy that's "outright useless" on it's own - Oligarchy. You've missed the boat with Legalism (in addition to confusing it with Oligarchy) - it's a key element of both cultural victories and Siam's science strategy, the only problem with it being that you want to wait on it and this locks out the rest of the tree. I'd just move it either off to the side or down the tree, where it can be picked up closer to when you'd typically want it without locking out the rest of Tradition.

The rest... well, you've said yourself a lot of them are 'good but not Liberty' (paraphrased.) Which is why I ask if the problem is really with Tradition. To me, Tradition's only real problem is that much of it feels like more of an investment into the Classic era rather than ancient era boost - it takes at least that long to really grow into the benefits, and that growth is best achieved by going Liberty first.

Originally Posted by TheHanzou

My take on honor is not that its especially a warmongering tree, we have one of that. Its just focused on military(-units and -buildings) and Honor.

Uh... what's the difference? If I'm focusing on military, it's most likely because I'm warmongering - defending against a neighboring warmonger being a close second.

Originally Posted by TheHanzou

My reasoning for puppet buffs was (1) that i want tradition to use puppets when waging war, not court houses, because then it would still be a relatively small empire when considering culture and production etc (and besides that noone uses puppets anymore, which is a shame), and (2) that it fits well with the background of oligarchy.

I'm still not entirely sure if court houses are bugged or working-as-intended :/

[Zaimejs]

Wow... I feel dumb. I used to go with Liberty, but then I thought I read somewhere that Tradition was better. Now it looks like I've been playing all my games wrong by going with tradition instead of Liberty.

I'll have to try a game starting off with Liberty. I do like the tweaks they've made with honor. It's still not great, but boy... max that out as Ghengis, and people best watch out.

[kamex]

I completely disagree with this thread. The liberty finisher is only good for generating a GE to reliably get a valuable wonder before the AI.

The tradition finisher is very very powerful when you go wide, allowing cities to either grow constantly, (including puppets who focus only on gold) or to focus on extra production tiles (or specialists which is a good combo with secularism / freedom tree). I admit some of the other tradition policies are not as useful though.

The Honor finisher is very over powered when going for a military based victory, as you will have a constant flow of gold, and this can be combined with the rush buy reduction bonuses (such as big ben) to constantly buy more and more units. Its not quite self-sufficient, but combined with a large gold puppet empire, you always have as much gold as you need.

[chazzycat]

Originally Posted by kamex

I completely disagree with this thread. The liberty finisher is only good for generating a GE to reliably get a valuable wonder before the AI.

so....a free settler, free worker, faster settler building, faster improvement building, production, happiness, reduced policy cost, and a golden age are not useful?

[joncnunn]

Main thing I would change to the Tradition tree is Legalism blocking other policies.

I think just swapping the order of Legalism with the free food in the capital one would really help in those games where your intending to found a few cities.

For Liberty: I think the free great person is a bit much considering the other benefits, and doesn't really seem to fit in with the expand theme of the rest of that tree. So I'd change the policy that both decreases the city penalty for policies & causes a GA to only decrease that penalty and save the Golden Age for the finisher.

Honor appears fine as is to me.

[trueblue]

whats that word again... situational.

[kamex]

Originally Posted by chazzycat

so....a free settler, free worker, faster settler building, faster improvement building, production, happiness, reduced policy cost, and a golden age are not useful?

I was only comparing the finisher, something one off to something that lasts all game!

[Gucumatz]

Situational is appropriate again.

Lately I have actually been going less and less liberty in multiplayer games against Humans (real competition) and been picking tradition.

Believe it or not it can be much more powerful than liberty. And even Oligarchy isnt worthless. In Multiplayer games (which is where I think the Policy was designed for) it helps in crushing opposing units.

I tend to rush build the great library when going tradition (if I see I have a good production start with forests) and then bulb philosophy ( I get Great library anywhere between turn 21-27) and get a free temple then with the policy and proceed to build the National College (Because in Multiplayer there is almost always someone who will beeline Hanging Gardens instead of GL) and get a quick +6 science and +50% Science in Capital. That early tech is HUGE since I can use it to keep me the lead against Humans for at least 80-110 turns since I know how to manage it.

And the rest of tradition allows my Capital to grow. And my cities then expand massively easily. A small empire (1-5) cities even in Multiplayer with tradition can be more powerful easily than people who go with liberty. The massive tech lead at start will nearly guarentee you for the Hagia Sophia too. Which means you can get at least the Porcelain Tower or Notre Dame even when the other human players use the liberty finisher often for one of these wonders.

Tradition: Is underrated. People don't know how to use it well.

[TheHanzou]

what kind of multiplayer are we talking about? If you dont get a second city until turn 30+ you are pretty much doomed in a FFA game, let alone 1vs1 or 2vs2, where expansion is the ultimate king.

Someone going liberty will have 5 cities 5 workers and at least 4 swordsmen by turn 40 if he plays correctly. This will snowball really really fast.

Tradition is especially useless in multiplayer games, because all that matters there is production and tech, not culture or money (where tradition is actually ok at considering a small empire). A city with 7 pop and a workshop is all you need in multiplayer to get a riflemen every 3 turns. Now take 7 of those cites and that by turn 90-100. furthermore tradition gets heavily outteched in multiplayer because its really easy to get 6,7 or even more univercities really fast. The sheer amount of great scientists will outtech anyone.

the other problem is military. Vs good players (league play or tournaments), you will get harassed by scouts, attacked by swordmen (not rushed, but you can just attack casually if you have them standing around, which DOES happen if you build correctly), all while still under turn 40.

On top of that you dont have iron teched, which everyone else will have by turn 30. So now you are already facing someone next to you seeing you build a wonder, while he just waits to upgrade his 5 warriors. Even if you could defend, youd have to produce units, from your only city. A liberty player is producing everything from units to science to happiness buildings, all the while improving 5x as much tiles as you are.
A single city with 1 pop on production already produces 5 hammers a turn, you have 1 city i have 5. that means im at 15-20 hammers advantage here. theres no way you can keep up with that. this difference just gets bigger and bigger, because the perfect city size is when all your mines are worked. any growth after that is almost completely useless.

The only thing that matters in multiplayer, is mines. if you have a granary and a water mill, even with a city at only 5 pop, we are looking at 25 hammers. Now if you have a huge city you will still not have 4 mines for every 5 pop, you will have a lot less. this is a huge disadvantage which cannot be overcome with the current tradition tree.

[TheHanzou]

double post.

[Tabarnak]

It's hard to understand what they had in mind when you compare what Tradition offered before the last major patch(june 2011). Tradition and Liberty were in good competition for both sp and mp modes. I took Tradition more often than Liberty before that time.

It was the best tree for populous and productive cities thanks to Landed Elite as your 3rd policy(now you have to complete the whole tree to get the same effect).

But when they reduced Tradition's qualities, Liberty became the no brainer tree to take(unless playing OCC), at least for optimality. Not a good idea when you need to add choices(and not reduce them) for this kind of game.

[Zaimejs]

I don't understand how people can get things so quickly early in the game. What can you do to speed things up? It seems like Pottery takes 9 turns then Writing takes another 8-9 turns.. so that's 18 turns. Great library is another 20 turns that early in the game... and this is without worrying about barbarians or anything else.

Iron in 30? Mining 9, Bronze Working 12, Iron is like... 20 early on in the game.

What am I doing wrong?

[Tabarnak]

Originally Posted by Zaimejs

What am I doing wrong?

Quick speed.

[Gucumatz]

Originally Posted by TheHanzou

what kind of multiplayer are we talking about? If you dont get a second city until turn 30+ you are pretty much doomed in a FFA game, let alone 1vs1 or 2vs2, where expansion is the ultimate king.

Someone going liberty will have 5 cities 5 workers and at least 4 swordsmen by turn 40 if he plays correctly. This will snowball really really fast.

Tradition is especially useless in multiplayer games, because all that matters there is production and tech, not culture or money (where tradition is actually ok at considering a small empire). A city with 7 pop and a workshop is all you need in multiplayer to get a riflemen every 3 turns. Now take 7 of those cites and that by turn 90-100. furthermore tradition gets heavily outteched in multiplayer because its really easy to get 6,7 or even more univercities really fast. The sheer amount of great scientists will outtech anyone.

the other problem is military. Vs good players (league play or tournaments), you will get harassed by scouts, attacked by swordmen (not rushed, but you can just attack casually if you have them standing around, which DOES happen if you build correctly), all while still under turn 40.

On top of that you dont have iron teched, which everyone else will have by turn 30. So now you are already facing someone next to you seeing you build a wonder, while he just waits to upgrade his 5 warriors. Even if you could defend, youd have to produce units, from your only city. A liberty player is producing everything from units to science to happiness buildings, all the while improving 5x as much tiles as you are.
A single city with 1 pop on production already produces 5 hammers a turn, you have 1 city i have 5. that means im at 15-20 hammers advantage here. theres no way you can keep up with that. this difference just gets bigger and bigger, because the perfect city size is when all your mines are worked. any growth after that is almost completely useless.

The only thing that matters in multiplayer, is mines. if you have a granary and a water mill, even with a city at only 5 pop, we are looking at 25 hammers. Now if you have a huge city you will still not have 4 mines for every 5 pop, you will have a lot less. this is a huge disadvantage which cannot be overcome with the current tradition tree.

Obviously I am not talking about duels. I am talking about 6-8 player games Continents, Pangea, Fractal, etc. which is much more tactical than a duel game which is limited to nly liberty as a choice. Again, why I said situational. A somewhat decent defense and you can hold things off. Still not hard to get 5 cities in Multiplayer with Tradition and by then your population in your Cap is much higher and producing both more science and tech. That cap becomes a linchpin being able to easily produce at least 400 science on its own before you even reach the industrial.

Again I am not counting duel or 2v2 games into this. When I play those obviously you are forced to go into liberty 99/100 times.

======

And yes sorry Zaimejs, Multiplayer is played in quick speed so turns are different.