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Old Apr 22, 2012, 09:06 AM   #21
Khrax
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Sorry, that last message was completely wrong, mixed the major and the minor. Yes, you should reach astronomy as median on first wave.
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Old Apr 22, 2012, 12:15 PM   #22
Tabarnak
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Here is a start i wanted to try since a couple of weeks. 4 cities set-up as fast as possible. 2 worker bought. Keeping gold for classical wave of RAs. Libraries hard built everywhere, i have finished Liberty at same turn than last libraries made. Result : NC at turn 51 with 4 cities

I don't know if it's good i never seen someone doing this so far.

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Maybe i can keep the GL for Astronomy?
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Old Apr 22, 2012, 03:38 PM   #23
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That's what i've done. GL for Astro. And Oracle for rationalism in the middle of my 1st wave of RAs. I think it's a great run so far. A 3rd wave of 6 RAs will begin to mature in 10 turns(started them very early) and i hope i will reach Globalization with a ge ready for the UN.

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Old Apr 22, 2012, 06:32 PM   #24
Lord_Bubu
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I thought, one couldn't hurry the UN with a GE!
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Old Apr 22, 2012, 06:51 PM   #25
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The UN can be rushed. Utopia, the Apollo Project and I think the Manhattan Project too ca not.
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Old Apr 22, 2012, 06:52 PM   #26
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Finished at 186. Had to wait 9 turns for last RA to be completed before starting the UN. Capital 23 with 1 ge gave me 4 turns left before countdown.
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Old Apr 22, 2012, 07:09 PM   #27
S.K. Ren
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I may have to join you in trying France. So far most of my games have either had crappy capital starts or I get DoWed by jealous AIs. Still I once got lucky with 2 Culture ruins before turn 10. I think I had my second city by turn 12 Hmm maybe I'll try China for giggles.
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Old Apr 22, 2012, 07:36 PM   #28
Tabarnak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S.K. Ren View Post
I may have to join you in trying France. So far most of my games have either had crappy capital starts or I get DoWed by jealous AIs. Still I once got lucky with 2 Culture ruins before turn 10. I think I had my second city by turn 12 Hmm maybe I'll try China for giggles.
You can automatically get a free city around turn 12 with France
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Old Apr 22, 2012, 10:42 PM   #29
S.K. Ren
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I'll definitely be doing France next. With China though you will have no shortage of money starting out. I was looking to finish my current game around T192ish but got greedy since I wanted to go for a winning time. GL went on T52 which was a shocker. Also I have explored almost everywhere and still have yet to find the 7th AI, that screwed over my RA plans since I waited till turn 90 to make my RAs mostly due to wanting to set up a strong median for my first wave. IF, and this is a big IF, if you can get two full strong waves starting preferably in the 70s, a Sub 150 win looks very possible.

Edit: Found the 7th AI, turns out it was France. They're the ones who sniped the GL too. Found them tucked on a peninsula behind Harun, grrr.

Last edited by S.K. Ren; Apr 22, 2012 at 11:11 PM.
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Old Apr 23, 2012, 01:46 AM   #30
Tabarnak
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Originally Posted by S.K. Ren View Post
a Sub 150 win looks very possible.
Globalization in 140 turns? Good luck. Sub 175 is more realist.
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Old Apr 23, 2012, 09:59 AM   #31
S.K. Ren
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Originally Posted by Tabarnak View Post
Globalization in 140 turns? Good luck. Sub 175 is more realist.
Haha yeah. Really what would have to happen is you would need to get 2 culture ruins (France only needs 1) and a +1 Pop ruin so you could start building settlers super early AND plant your 2nd asap since its only 35 Culture to the second policy, that second culture ruin would get you there in an instant. Then you would need 1400 gold minimum (probably more, but doable with enough rich AI's and resources.) by turn 70, get a full wave of RAs not to mention build the NC super early, probably rush buying the 4th Library and hard building a worker. After that It would mean finishing Education, Chivalry and Astronomy by turn 100 as well as finishing Liberty for the first GE since it should finish before Hagia so you can bulb PT. You would also have to pre build and hope Oracle and GL aren't built and time them to get Astronomy and Rationalism opener then have at least 2450 gold (Doable as China) ready to start the second wave immediately.

Like I said, its a big IF. Actually its more of an IFF
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Old Apr 23, 2012, 04:05 PM   #32
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I really liked my last approach. I used a ge from Liberty to rush the NC at turn 51. That way i could clear in a decent time some medieval techs and reached PT in time for my 1st wave of RAs(signed first one at turn 51) around turn 80.

I kept the GL for Astronomy and Oracle for Rationalism on same turn for 2 last RAs form first wave.

The problem is that 2 civs hadn't enough money for an early 2nd wave when the time had come. It reflected later when i had to wait 9 turns before reching Globalization while all my cities were put on idle.
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Old Apr 23, 2012, 06:29 PM   #33
vexing
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i can't imagine getting enough gold over 30 rounds to manage with such an early 2 waves, and you're going to have a hard time producing enough scientists anyway.
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Old Apr 24, 2012, 11:25 AM   #34
S.K. Ren
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As China in my last playthrough I had 2000+ gold by turn 70 and ~3000 by turn 90. Having a GA gpt of ~50 that early is amazing With 4 cities you are getting 12(3 per city)gpt raw over any there comparable civ at that moment due to paper makers. Add in a well rivered start and you'll have no troubles with gold. As anyone else but china you're looking at a total of only 360 gold lost over 30 turns which isn't that much.
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Old Apr 24, 2012, 12:35 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by S.K. Ren View Post
As anyone else but china you're looking at a total of only 360 gold lost over 30 turns which isn't that much.
it's a little less than that, at chieftain maintenance costs are 2/3rds
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Old Apr 25, 2012, 07:31 AM   #36
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Hey Tabarnak,
I really liked your Liberty GE for NC rush idea. So I stole it.
At turn 54 I have a great 4 city start with both GL (took Civil Service) and NC. I also see a great fifth city with tons of food and luxes. Khan will be annoyed when I nab it, but I'm already denounced by my Chinese neighbour to the west for impinging on her territory, so what's one more? hopefully I can execute the RAs and the diplo well enough to get a decent finish.
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Old Apr 25, 2012, 11:44 AM   #37
Tabarnak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold_T View Post
Hey Tabarnak,
I really liked your Liberty GE for NC rush idea. So I stole it.
At turn 54 I have a great 4 city start with both GL (took Civil Service) and NC. I also see a great fifth city with tons of food and luxes. Khan will be annoyed when I nab it, but I'm already denounced by my Chinese neighbour to the west for impinging on her territory, so what's one more? hopefully I can execute the RAs and the diplo well enough to get a decent finish.
Good. Ideas are made to be stolen

Just wandering if you will get enough for RAs since you gonna surely pay a 100 penalty for the rest of the game unless you deliberately wait for them to enter the medieval era...in my game they entered at best around turn 100. I remember a civ that entered this era only around turn 140
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Old Apr 25, 2012, 12:32 PM   #38
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I got enough gold to make six classical RAs which I paid the 100 gold penalty on most of, if not all of them. they are resolving turns 94, 105, 108, 109, 114, 117. The first has already resolved, I'm at turn 97, and have renewed it to resolve at turn 125 (first one of second wave). I don't have enough gold to fund seven RAs. But I seem to be doing OK. I have Education done, finished Hanging Gardens in Paris, finished HS in City#2 for a GE, saving it for PT in six turns. I want to time PT to use the GS for Astromomy, and then finish off Oracle to get Rationalism. that should be around T110 I think. It would be nice to get both PT and Rationalism before T105, but I don't think it's possible at this point in my game.
I guess my first RA wave was too early according to Khrax since my median is below Astronomy.

Last edited by Arnold_T; Apr 25, 2012 at 02:29 PM. Reason: typo
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Old Apr 25, 2012, 06:07 PM   #39
Khrax
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It's important with lots of food and lots of hammers to do a very good game. Early maritime city-states can be extremely nice. If you have plenty of food and hammers in your cities it is very possible to do the first wave before turn 70 and reach astronomy as median without using any great persons. Before turn 80 is often more realistic. If I reach astronomy as median for all the RAs in first wave, the rest of the game will often almost play itself.

I like to save all great persons to the endgame even it is tempting to use some of them early. It can seem very nice to get a wonder or a tech fast, but I think it is often not worth it because you really need great people in the endgame. I admit that the NC idea seems nice, but I am anyway a bit sceptical to using a GE for it.

One thing about RAs: In my opinion they must come when they must come, and when playing at low levels you have to pay the extra 100 gold (or 10 + 4 gpt) all the time. You need a strong economy and big cities so you can afford it. You cannot wait with going into new eras and you cannot wait with the RAs if you really want a good time. That is my opinion. In my games I usually can afford buying 1-2 workers early, buying at least 2-3 city states early, three waves with 5-7 RAs in each and paying 100 extra gold for most of them. The first wave is usually the most difficult one, but if you only get 2-3 RAs here it can anyway be a very good game. The two last waves are the most critical ones.
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Old Apr 25, 2012, 09:32 PM   #40
Tabarnak
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I find important to not wait for too long for first wave of RAs because the AI has often the bad habit to go bankrupt a bit before turn 100 and can take many many turns before accumulating again.

I tried another game this afternoon(i ragequit because of bad AI personnalities) and found civs with only 1 gpt after only 30 turns...my submitted game was far better than that(like over 5-6 gpt for everyone or close). I don't know if i will submit another one but if i will try to send a sub 175 turns game if possible..and if AIs really want to collaborate for this project
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