C2C - Religions discussions and ideas

[Thunderbrd]

I've been thinking, along those lines, that Islam should have some exp benefits for gunpowder units as well.

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Originally Posted by hotrodlincoln

The Intolerant civic could use some work. It has so many penalties associated with it that I have never once run it, even in games where I otherwise would. Perhaps tone down the revolt instability to only cause local revolt instability. Increase unhappiness due to non-state religions to make up for it. As it is, I usually avoid running Intolerance simply because my empire would fall apart the minute I try it.

Also, certain religions should probably not work with Intolerant. Most of the polytheistic religions tend to view other religions as simply "that city's God", as opposed to a heathen, evil belief system. Baha'i should definitely not allow intolerance, because one of it's central beliefs is that all religions are correct, in that they are how those people chose to interpret God.

I don't think there is a mechanism in Civ IV to limit civics by religion. may be interesting to add it. Especially as some forbid slavery also.

Originally Posted by hotrodlincoln

I also realize that it's been discussed before, but what about splitting Christianity into Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism? We already have all the graphics we need for those, and it makes perfect sense. We already have Mormonism as a seperate religion, even though it is /much/ smaller than the other branches of Christianity.

Mormon and Scientology are in because they are post-Christian religions. There are over 300 different Christian cults in the US so why bother splitting in the first place.

Originally Posted by hotrodlincoln

Lastly, You know how LDS buildings remove access to wine, tea, tobacco, and coffee? That should be expanded a bit. Both Islam and Baha'i do not allow their followers to drink alcohol. Baha'i also forbids the usage of pretty much any intoxicant, so they should remove access to the Drugs resource as well. Theoretically Islam also forbids the usage of intoxicants, but in practice, the smoking of hashish and opium has been widespread across the Islamic world for quite some time, while the prohibition against alcohol has actually been observed, for the most part.

Not all Islamic traditions forbid alcohol some do not forbid even forbid wine which I understand to be the actual prohibition not alcohol. Neither the removing of access to a resource or unhappiness from a resource works well. I put the remove access in as a trial but don't like the affect on multi religion cities.

Originally Posted by hotrodlincoln

Edit: A few more thoughts. How about moving Andeanism back to Calendar and toning down it's research bonuses? I've never thought of Andeanism as being a particularly scientific belief system, even if the Incas were surprisingly advanced given their isolation. One religion that I think could use research bonuses that is currently lacking it is Baha'i. One of the central beliefs of Baha'i is that Science and Religion must work together, for Religion without Science breeds superstition, and Science without Religion breeds materialism. This could help to beef up Baha'i and make it a more desirable religion to have as state religion. As it is, Baha'i comes into the game so late and provides bonuses that differ very little from other religions.

Both were late additions to the set of religions in C2C so I am not adverse to these changes. Especially as Baha'i is one I added.

Originally Posted by hotrodlincoln

Also, how about some small military bonuses for Sikhism, like the ones for Shinto, Hellenism, Tengriism and Asatru? Sikhs have long been famed for the prowess of their warriors. The Sikh religion encourages a militant stand in the fight against evil, and to this end all Sikhs must carry a dagger at all times (Modern Sikhs usually wear a ceremonial dagger necklace that does not come out of it's sheath and could not be mistaken for a weapon). Perhaps it could grant +1 experience for it's buildings in the manner that Asatru does, with the difference that it wouldn't be limited to just melee units. This could make Sikhism a much more attractice choice, as right now it is a pretty lackluster religion, especially considering how late in the game it is founded.

Sounds fair. What about Jainism?

[hotrodlincoln]

Jain buildings should have the -15% military production applied to all buildings. To make up for this penalty, all of these buildings should have very significant culture bonuses, and also provide +1 happiness even if they are not your state religion. Jain buildings would give a further +1 happiness if you are running Pacifism (If that can be done), and a +1 unhappiness for militaristic civics like Despotism, Conscription, Military Tradition, etc. In other words, a /very/ useful religion if you are playing a peaceful civ, but a horrible religion to have around if you are militaristic.

Edit: On the subject of religions removing access to certain resources, if it is possible, perhaps this could be tied to your state religion rather than the building itself. Mormon state religion forbids alcohol, tea, tobacco, coffee, Islam forbids Wine, Baha'i forbids alcohol, drugs, and so on and so forth. Otherwise, I agree, scrapping the mechanic altogether may be best. I never build Mormon religious buildings simply because I am running Secularism by the time it comes around anyway, and I don't want to lose access to the resources.

[Mouthwash]

How would these "late game" religions spread (other than from the player)? The AI will never switch religions. There should be some way to stop shamanism and tengriism from being the only major religions by 2100.

[hotrodlincoln]

Originally Posted by Mouthwash

How would these "late game" religions spread (other than from the player)? The AI will never switch religions. There should be some way to stop shamanism and tengriism from being the only major religions by 2100.

My experience is that it's not really a problem in Caveman 2 Cosmos. Civs automatically have their favored religion spread to them, and so long as having that religion is an option (i.e., enough of their people follow that religion to justify conversion), they'll adopt said religion. Usually Christianity becomes the major religion in my games, simply because it is the favored religion of the greatest number of civilizations. I only find this to be problematic when the AI isn't assigned a favored religion for whatever reason, then they will usually go with whatever religion spreads to them naturally, usually the earliest religion.

Edit: Of course, if you're trying to spread a late game religion that historically was never a "state religion" of any country, you're pretty much out of luck so far as converting every civ is concerned. Baha'i, Sikhism, Mormonism, Scientology, etc, will likely never become the majority religions in your game without some serious effort on your part. This is actually realistic, as all those religions I just mentioned are minority religions in every country they are present in. Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism on the other hand usually can spread quite nicely, which is, again, realistic, as those are the three biggest religions in the world.

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Originally Posted by hotrodlincoln

Jain buildings should have the -15% military production applied to all buildings. To make up for this penalty, all of these buildings should have very significant culture bonuses, and also provide +1 happiness even if they are not your state religion. Jain buildings would give a further +1 happiness if you are running Pacifism (If that can be done), and a +1 unhappiness for militaristic civics like Despotism, Conscription, Military Tradition, etc. In other words, a /very/ useful religion if you are playing a peaceful civ, but a horrible religion to have around if you are militaristic.

As I said earlier there is no mechanic to link religion and civics.... Or maybe there is... I will need to investigate building tags further...

Originally Posted by hotrodlincoln

Edit: On the subject of religions removing access to certain resources, if it is possible, perhaps this could be tied to your state religion rather than the building itself. Mormon state religion forbids alcohol, tea, tobacco, coffee, Islam forbids Wine, Baha'i forbids alcohol, drugs, and so on and so forth. Otherwise, I agree, scrapping the mechanic altogether may be best. I never build Mormon religious buildings simply because I am running Secularism by the time it comes around anyway, and I don't want to lose access to the resources.

There is no mechanism for this at the state religion level.

Originally Posted by Mouthwash

How would these "late game" religions spread (other than from the player)? The AI will never switch religions. There should be some way to stop shamanism and tengriism from being the only major religions by 2100.

The multi religion spread option works better than the default BtS one which only spreads one religion to a city.

The_J's real favorite religion mod ensures that a leader gets their favorite religion in their capital if they don't found it. I would have thought the AI would try and spread that religion to all its cities and change to have it as the state religion. Maybe the AI is lacking here, Koshling?

[DRJ]

Originally Posted by Mouthwash

How would these "late game" religions spread (other than from the player)? The AI will never switch religions. There should be some way to stop shamanism and tengriism from being the only major religions by 2100.

Much like culture-wonders, religions could be tied to sets of resources: for example animalism will only be allowed to establish in a city when it has 'deer' and in its vicinity.

Islam for example would only be able to have a chance to autospread to cities with dates and figs in BFC, Hellenism to those with olives, Christianity to those with wine, Asartu with pelt etc. pp.
Religions could still spread in cities that don't have the 'main resource' in BFC but only if a missionary goes there and only if the resource required for that religion is available in the trade grid of the to be proselytized city.

For example Animalism gets founded in Murmansk (deer in BFC) and Moscow has deer in trade grid but not it BFC it can get the religion but can't get it by autospread anymore. A city that has no deer in trade grid can't have the religion in the first place. If you lose access to a religious resource the religion will not disappear asap but its effects will be crippled, so instead of +2 from temple only +1 and instead of 4 only 2 /turn - as long as the resource is not in trade grid.

Spoiler:

(so if you gift res. to AI to be able to send your missionaries to him, and then after spreading the religion you deny that civ the resource, it will very likely switch back from the religion you converted it to because other religions would grant it full bonus.---so there's an indirect necessity for taking care of your sheeple^^)

After a certain techlevel (globalisation..) this res prerequisite will stop to matter much so religions can spread more freely then. And imagine teaching the AI to actually make the choice between selling the resource so it can spread its main religion to your land or denying you the (strategic?) resource but also have no influence about your religious affairs. The more sneaky leaders could profit from a religious reform like this^^

After all, religion is always tied to abstract 'goods' like POWER or MONEY generated by POWER. So why not tie resource prerequisites to certain religions, it surely gets rid of the problem of religious ÜBER-dominance as well as the one techleader founds all religions -- as a techleader will surely not always have the resource to found a religion ASAP. The player however could see what resources he has in his empire and beeline to a fitting religion -- or do the pragmatic aproach and adept to an already founded religion by means of trades and riding with the pack, picking out other religions.

[Mouthwash]

Originally Posted by DRJ

Much like culture-wonders, religions could be tied to sets of resources: for example animalism will only be allowed to establish in a city when it has 'deer' and in its vicinity.

Islam for example would only be able to have a chance to autospread to cities with dates and figs in BFC, Hellenism to those with olives, Christianity to those with wine, Asartu with pelt etc. pp.
Religions could still spread in cities that don't have the 'main resource' in BFC but only if a missionary goes there and only if the resource required for that religion is available in the trade grid of the to be proselytized city.

For example Animalism gets founded in Murmansk (deer in BFC) and Moscow has deer in trade grid but not it BFC it can get the religion but can't get it by autospread anymore. A city that has no deer in trade grid can't have the religion in the first place. If you lose access to a religious resource the religion will not disappear asap but it's effects will be crippled, so instead of +2 from temple only +1 and instead of 4 only 2 /turn - as long as the resource is not in trade grid.

Spoiler:

(so if you gift res. to AI to be able to send your missionaries to him, and then after spreading the religion you deny that civ the resource, it will very likely switch back from the religion you converted it to because other religions would grant it full bonus.---so there's an indirect necessity for taking care of your sheeple^^)

After a certain techlevel (globalisation..) this res prerequisite will stop to matter much so religions can spread more freely then. And imagine teaching the AI to actually make the choice between selling the resource so it can spread its main religion to your land or denying you the (strategic?) resource but also have no influence about your religious affairs. The more sneaky leaders could profit from a religious reform like this^^

After all, religion is always tied to abstract 'goods' like POWER or MONEY generated by POWER. So why not tie resource prerequisites to certain religions, it surely gets rid of the problem of religious ÜBER-dominance as well as the one techleader founds all religions -- as a techleader will surely not always have the resource to found a religion ASAP. The player however could see what resources he has in his empire and beeline to a fitting religion -- or do the pragmatic aproach and adept to an already founded religion by means of trades and riding with the pack, picking out other religions.

In my opinion, divine prophets would solve the problem much more easily, but the AI does not use them properly. As I stated, Izzy founded 4-5 religions in her capital and has no sign of slowing down. Your idea does have some nice possibilities however. If you beelined that HR religion (forgot what it's called) and it gave nice bonuses for mounted units, it would be good for a horsey rush. Similarly, other religions would have more specific bonuses. It ensures that the AI will choose a religion based on it's current situation or plans, and offers alternatives to history. Why can't Baha'i or Mormonism become dominant world religions? The game isn't made for historical accuracy (that's RFC ).

[strategyonly]

Originally Posted by JosEPh_II

@ SO,
Yeppers on the SVN. Although I have not updated since Sunday.

I missed the 1st 2 but got Ngai without realizing it. Then I beelined Tengri. After that I was trying to get to Tribalism as fast as possible and then from Tribal to Sed Life. (Which I did get to 1st) and from the free tech I took Caste which gave Mesopot. Which in turn lead to Sac. Cult. which gave Naghalism. I then Beelined Mono and got it 1st. I then took Mathematics that gives Shinto. Then Meditation for Buddhism and Monasteries. 200 game years later I researched Code of Law 1st and got Confucianism. It's now 1149BC in my current game on the New Epic speed.

JosEPh

Next time you do this, can you pls post a screenie of the tech tree, i am just wondering what tech's where left out when you beelined for each religion, and also screenie when each religion is provided also, thx.

[Dancing Hoskuld]

@JosEPh_II in your opinion would moving the Andean religion to Calendar increase the clumping of the religions or not?

[Koshling]

Originally Posted by Dancing Hoskuld

@JosEPh_II in your opinion would moving the Andean religion to Calendar increase the clumping of the religions or not?

Urgh. I personally rely on Andeism being avaliable as a late religion, because its usually the first one I am able to beat the AI to, apart from shamanism (if I try). Without some other mechanic to prevent the tech leaders garbbing everything we need to keep one or two around the time period Andeism is currently in IMO.

[JosEPh_II]

Originally Posted by Dancing Hoskuld

@JosEPh_II in your opinion would moving the Andean religion to Calendar increase the clumping of the religions or not?

Probably so. Since Calendar is in a relative close position to the techs from Mono/Poly lines up thru Code of Laws. The Prereqs and the AND/OR requirements Is one of the main ways to keep even closely related Religions on separate research paths.

Now with the added Preh era techs there could be some repositioning there. So that Druid/Shaman/Ngai/Tengri early religions would have a new competitor or 2. But again 1 religion can not be the preq or an AND for another this is the main root of this problem as I see it.

And as Koshling stated some of these religions do need to be further up the tech tree for a later game religion.

The techtree in it's pathing has what I call "choke points", Must have techs that almost every path converges on. Like Writing, upon which Mono needs, but as soon as you get Mono you have the choice of Mathematics, Alphabet, etc. Since Shinto was placed on Mathematics it's a must have religion once you get Mono. Shinto needs to have a further tech spread from the writing/mono pathing. This is one example that is still fresh in my mind from my current game.

JosEPh

[strategyonly]

I was wondering if the "cost" of each tech would divert some of the AI to so called "bug off" from beelining to them, like make them 2X the cost for some?, just wondering??

[JosEPh_II]

It might but the player may not be so inclined to be "bugged off" and would research them anyway.

This current game I've a managed to be the Religion Leader in founding so far. But I've had in previous versions were I was religion-less until the later Religions became available. And Had to push hard to get even one.

Mouthwash's protests over Isabella already founding 5 religions sounds just like you several versions back when Saladin had founded most of the religions in that game of yours and you posted a Screenshot of Mecca with over 10 religions in it. We've had those type discussions before.

If a religion "must" have another religion as it's prereq then the 2nd religion has to be at least 3 more techs down the line, not back to back. As it is now we have multiple instances of this. This creates the cluster effect and who ever gets there 1st has the option of claiming them. And the AI does it as much as the player. Which of it's self shows the AI recognizes the benefits of doing so just like the player.

A lot of this clustering revolves around the Original CIV IV/BtS religion placements in the Original tech tree. From Poly/Sculpture(Helenism)/Mono/Buddhism/Confucian/Tao/etc.,these religions were all clumped in a relatively short span of the tech tree. The break up of the poly/Mono line we did several version back, helped here but was not continued with the others.

Unfortunately my Job doesn't allow me the real time I need to dissect the tech tree (religion wise) like it really needs. Once some of these clusters are broken up by spacing intervening techs alot of these "So and So got most of the religions" Or "I got all the religions" complaints will disappear.

At least that's the way I see it.

JosEPh

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Originally Posted by JosEPh_II

Probably so. Since Calendar is in a relative close position to the techs from Mono/Poly lines up thru Code of Laws. The Prereqs and the AND/OR requirements Is one of the main ways to keep even closely related Religions on separate research paths.

Now with the added Preh era techs there could be some repositioning there. So that Druid/Shaman/Ngai/Tengri early religions would have a new competitor or 2. But again 1 religion can not be the preq or an AND for another this is the main root of this problem as I see it.

And as Koshling stated some of these religions do need to be further up the tech tree for a later game religion.

The techtree in it's pathing has what I call "choke points", Must have techs that almost every path converges on. Like Writing, upon which Mono needs, but as soon as you get Mono you have the choice of Mathematics, Alphabet, etc. Since Shinto was placed on Mathematics it's a must have religion once you get Mono. Shinto needs to have a further tech spread from the writing/mono pathing. This is one example that is still fresh in my mind from my current game.

JosEPh

I usually go for Mathematics (Shinto) then much later go for Monotheism (Judaism). The Great Wall is too important to miss out on .

Edit: I have made the changes suggested for Baha'i and Sikh but not for Jain as most of them can't be done at the moment. I have also checked about civic-religion relationships and they don't exist at the moment.

If I am going to work on anything major with the religions then it will be based of Sevo's "Faces of God" mod which allows you to customise your state religion when you get it to 60% of your population. It adds what looks like an interesting dimension on top of the existing religion implementation.

[JosEPh_II]

I usually go for Mathematics (Shinto) then much later go for Monotheism (Judaism). The Great Wall is too important to miss out on

Oh no doubt on the GW, but you can still get Mono, Shinto and the GW like I've just done. And have done in the past. Thus claiming 2 Major religions And a Wonder.

JosEPh

[hotrodlincoln]

I brought this idea up in the tech tree thread but I forgot to bring it up here. How about adding some dead end techs, who's sole purpose is to found a religion? What I mean is, rather than Dualism founding Zoroastrianism, Dualism would lead to a tech called Zoroastrianism, Polytheism would lead to a tech called Hinduism, etc etc. This way, getting a new religion actually requires a sacrifice on your part, as opposed to the way it is now, where I can easily found five religions completely on accident. This would space out the religions quite a bit too. Rather than getting Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Judaism, and Buddhism all in one tech path, in order to get all of those would require four more techs than it did before. It would still be possible for those who want to found a thousand religions, but it would be more difficult this way.

In Rise Of Mankind, Ceremonial Burial founded Kemetism and Dualism founded Zoroastrianism. Both were dead end techs that unlocked a wonder and their respective religion, but did nothing else. In several games I tried to found both, but I was beaten to one or the other, or both, everytime. The AI should be able to handle this adjustment just fine.

[Thunderbrd]

I like the idea of dead end techs to get religions as long as the ai ca recognize that the dead end is just that once the religion has been founded.

I'm not fond of making resource requirements for religions. That would create a great deal of havoc for Divine Prophets that I'm unequipped to remedy.

I've been doing some thinking on how to fix the ai's handling of DP in a non-choose religion environment. If the ai would only hold one prophet for its primary religion choice if that religion choice is still available but as yet unachievable due to tech level, it would allow prophets earned in the meantime to still maintain usefulness. Its been a while since I've worked on any .dll programming so it might be a bit before I go back to work that out but at least a solution has been conceived.

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Originally Posted by hotrodlincoln

I brought this idea up in the tech tree thread but I forgot to bring it up here. How about adding some dead end techs, who's sole purpose is to found a religion? What I mean is, rather than Dualism founding Zoroastrianism, Dualism would lead to a tech called Zoroastrianism, Polytheism would lead to a tech called Hinduism, etc etc. This way, getting a new religion actually requires a sacrifice on your part, as opposed to the way it is now, where I can easily found five religions completely on accident. This would space out the religions quite a bit too. Rather than getting Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, Judaism, and Buddhism all in one tech path, in order to get all of those would require four more techs than it did before. It would still be possible for those who want to found a thousand religions, but it would be more difficult this way.

In Rise Of Mankind, Ceremonial Burial founded Kemetism and Dualism founded Zoroastrianism. Both were dead end techs that unlocked a wonder and their respective religion, but did nothing else. In several games I tried to found both, but I was beaten to one or the other, or both, everytime. The AI should be able to handle this adjustment just fine.

They were dead end techs in C2C also until the push to get rid of all dead end techs. In general I against the idea of adding a special dead end tech off from the current tech need to found the religion. However, if we were adding more of the early nomadic and farming religions I could see the mechanism working.

EG Shamanism the tech would lead to a number of dead end religion techs say 2-3 per default culture each can only be researched if you have that default culture. We could use a variation on the Rapture early religions for this. Just an idea.

@Koshling/AIAndy, does the AI know to spread its favorite religion even if it id not found it? For those leaders where their favorite religion is a late religion do they spread an early religion until the real favorite comes along or not?

[Koshling]

Originally Posted by Dancing Hoskuld

@Koshling/AIAndy, does the AI know to spread its favorite religion even if it id not found it? For those leaders where their favorite religion is a late religion do they spread an early religion until the real favorite comes along or not?

They spread their current favorite, whatever it is (i.e. - what they have adopted as state typically). When their 'real' favorite comes along it will tend to override any others unless they are very entrenched.