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Old Jan 18, 2010, 08:02 AM   #101
Spoonwood
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I would have guessed that by "remaining useful" he means to refer to the speed of the conquistador in enemy territory, which in an army, and with some solid defense at the end of a turn, can pillage massively.

Since the thread has gotten dredged up, I'll say that, as pointed out by Ision, the article works limited in scope. The comments overlook that the war chariot makes for a better disconnect-reconnect unit than any other. It also has greater value on smaller sized maps, witness the Sid Tiny conquest and domination tables in the HoF. The enkidu warrior has a hidden value in that some Sid players have used it in ways you wouldn't think to ever try on lower levels... you play with no militaristic opponents, you train some good enkidus, declare war fairly earlier, and watch the AIs warriors impale on your enkidus. The Numidian Mercenary makes a rather good compliment for a 20k island game, since it helps you survive early. It's definitely not "bottom tier" there, imo.

I think it much more important to point out reasons why you value a UU over another, or more over it's regular version, than a simple rating. Having said that Ision says in the thread
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ision
Every UU is of benefit - and they all provide an upgrade over the units they replace and/or supplement. My intention with tiers is to break units or civs into catagories that reflect the degree to which they are an upgrade.
If Ision meant that, then why wouldn't the Conquistador come as in the 0th tier, since it replaces the 0 attack, 0 defense explorer? Since he didn't, I feel inclined to believe this some sort of propoganda instead of a more careful analysis. Or maybe he just forgot what it replaced?
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Old Jan 18, 2010, 09:04 AM   #102
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That Ision statement is confusing. What about the cost of a unit? At 70 shields, it makes more sense to compare a Conquistador with a knight.

Because of the cost factor some units can be considered a downgrade from the unit they're replacing; Chasqui Scout means no 10-shield scouts anymore (except for the free one at the start); Javelin Thrower means no 20-shield archers anymore and Three-man Chariot means no 20-shield chariots anymore and not even 30-shield horsemen.
These handicaps have to be taken into account.

Personally I don't care if exploitative tactics like disconnect-connect with the War Chariot or that early war tactic with the Enkidu don't get covered in a general strategy article. Disconnect-connect is simply a cheat to me, so why highlight it in an article that introduces the units?
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Old Jan 18, 2010, 01:26 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Optional
Disconnect-connect is simply a cheat to me, so why highlight it in an article that introduces the units?
Because not everyone would regard it as a cheat. Neither the HoF nor the XOTM competitions prohibit it, unless I've missed something.
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Old Jan 18, 2010, 02:29 PM   #104
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Post #50 by Greebly was the only mention of the lonely Conquistador as deserving more and mentioning how incredible an army of them can be. I use them to pillage and knock out radar towers with redlined units in enemy territory. Have you ever sacrificed a Cavalry Unit or other 2/3 move unit that can get there and get the job done and not be able return to safe territory, well the Conquistador can and come back the next turn and do it again.
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Old Jan 18, 2010, 04:46 PM   #105
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Definitely need to give the Portugese a try then in my next game.
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Old Jan 19, 2010, 12:33 PM   #106
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Definitely need to give the Portugese a try then in my next game.
Also a holiday on the Iberian peninsula would do you good; Conquistador = Spain; Carrack = Portugal.

A Conquistador army would be great at pillaging, but with any army a human player would be able to conquer stuff, and I would rather do that than to pillage.
It's also only a Conquistador army that would do a great pillaging job; a single Conquistador isn't suitable. It treats all terrain as roads, so it's fast, but its base speed is only 2. If it pillages, it uses up 1 of those 2 speed points, meaning it has only 1 speed for its actual movement left. That's only 3 tiles, not enough to get somewhere and get back in the same turn. Maybe to flee on a mountain or something, but assuming the enemy has units with attack 4 - knights or medieval infantry - you'll probably get attacked and lose your expensive 70-shield Conquistador.
I can't help but love the unit, though.
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Old Jan 19, 2010, 01:52 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Optional
It's also only a Conquistador army that would do a great pillaging job; a single Conquistador isn't suitable. It treats all terrain as roads, so it's fast, but its base speed is only 2. If it pillages, it uses up 1 of those 2 speed points, meaning it has only 1 speed for its actual movement left. That's only 3 tiles, not enough to get somewhere and get back in the same turn. Maybe to flee on a mountain or something, but assuming the enemy has units with attack 4 - knights or medieval infantry - you'll probably get attacked and lose your expensive 70-shield Conquistador.
I haven't done it myself, but I think individual Conquistador pillaging might refer to swooping into a border square, pillaging it, and then retreating back underneath cover of a defensive unit. A Conquistador has a greater range than a cavalry here. Also, if you have rails up, getting to the border, getting back on the rails probably doesn't prove too much of a problem for a Conquistador.
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Old Jan 19, 2010, 01:52 PM   #108
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It treats all terrain as roads, so it's fast, but its base speed is only 2. If it pillages, it uses up 1 of those 2 speed points, meaning it has only 1 speed for its actual movement left. That's only 3 tiles, not enough to get somewhere and get back in the same turn.
Don't forget the rounding effects.

A Conquistador can move two tiles and pillage, all in one of its two movement points. It can then get back to safety using the second point.

Alternatively, you can use it as a suicide bomber, going five tiles into enemy territory and then pillaging. Launch enough of them on a capital and you'll cripple the enemy. Some might even survive if the enemy doesn't have enough units to retaliate.
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Old Jan 19, 2010, 03:53 PM   #109
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To amplify what AlanH said, if you cut the roads to an enemy's capital they can't trade for resources or luxuries with anyone else, and they lose all trade routes they had previously.
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Old Jan 19, 2010, 05:04 PM   #110
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Quote:
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Don't forget the rounding effects.

A Conquistador can move two tiles and pillage, all in one of its two movement points. It can then get back to safety using the second point.
I didn't know about the rounding effects. So if the pillaging takes place before the first movement point has completely been used, the pillaging just ends the first move, but you would still have a complete second move left? Well, that's better than I thought it was!
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Old Jan 20, 2010, 02:25 AM   #111
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Sorry, my memory was playing tricks. It's been a while. You were right, the rounding only works at the end of the movement, not on each three-tile move. So with six movement points you can only move one tile, pillage, and move one tile back to safety. The five-tiles-and-pillage then wait to be killed works fine, though.
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Old Jan 20, 2010, 06:52 AM   #112
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Well, I'm happy waiting to be killed works!

I find those movement mechanics a bit tricky to understand, but what we should of course remember that suicide tactics or operating under the cover of a defender can be done by any ordinary explorer and for much less cost, so no points for Spain here.
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Old Jan 20, 2010, 10:02 AM   #113
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Well, I'm happy waiting to be killed works!

I find those movement mechanics a bit tricky to understand, but what we should of course remember that suicide tactics or operating under the cover of a defender can be done by any ordinary explorer and for much less cost, so no points for Spain here.
Except that a Conq actually requires a "real" unit to kill it, instead of a random spearman that was kept around since 2800 BC.

The "move 5 + pillage" is a really devastating maneuver in the right hands. "Move 6" also basically wreaks havoc on any enemy worker actions anywhere near a border.
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Old Jan 20, 2010, 04:14 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Optional View Post
but what we should of course remember that suicide tactics or operating under the cover of a defender can be done by any ordinary explorer and for much less cost, so no points for Spain here.
An ordinary explorer doesn't have attack/defensive values, so it can't pillage or kill units where a Conquistador can, so yes, points for Spain. Besides the sound effects of the barking dog make me laugh.
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Old Jan 21, 2010, 12:52 AM   #115
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Even an ordinary scout can pillage, a unit doesn't need an attack or defense value for that.
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Except that a Conq actually requires a "real" unit to kill it, instead of a random spearman that was kept around since 2800 BC.
Yes, but if the enemy doesn't have those 'real' units, what would keep me from conquering them?
Quote:
The "move 5 + pillage" is a really devastating maneuver in the right hands. "Move 6" also basically wreaks havoc on any enemy worker actions anywhere near a border.
But when are you bothered about enemy worker actions? I want the AI to make those improvements, as that's also my bread and butter. Grabbing a slave is different, that's always good, but it would be tough to bring a slave back to safety from 5 deep into enemy territory.

The Conquistador might be more useful in really tough Always War games, where it's easy to overstretch and the human player doesn't benefit from trade routes. Then to cause bother is maybe all you can do. From getting at the wrong end of Spain once in a game I know how terrible the Conquistador is to be up against...
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Old Jan 21, 2010, 09:57 AM   #116
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Yes, but if the enemy doesn't have those 'real' units, what would keep me from conquering them?
Well, nothing, obviously. But it's an opportunity cost issue for the enemy--do you use your attacking units on the Conquistador (and probably get weakened and exposed in the process), or do you use it on those cavalry that are coming for your city instead?
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Old Jan 21, 2010, 01:59 PM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwetzel
Well, nothing, obviously. But it's an opportunity cost issue for the enemy--do you use your attacking units on the Conquistador (and probably get weakened and exposed in the process), or do you use it on those cavalry that are coming for your city instead?
Neither, because they see nothing but (cavalry) armies. Maybe veteran or elite cavalry or cannon or artillery proper hide below, but they never see 'em! Alright, smart aleck comment, I know.
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Old Jan 22, 2010, 03:50 PM   #118
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Even an ordinary scout can pillage, a unit doesn't need an attack or defense value for that.
Okay, I had to check this out myself, didn't believe it. So if the Scout/Explorer can pillage that takes away half of the added benefit of the Conquistador and lumps it with the main group.

So that leaves me with the opinion that there are two groups, those with a modest improvement and small window of advantage until the next better unit comes along and unique units replacing units that are rarely used or are useless. I originally just put the F-15 in this group but not being a fan of large navies I would have to include the Man-O-War in the rarely used or useless category.

I love the fact that you can keep going back and looking at the same thing and seeing new things.
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Old Dec 20, 2012, 06:39 AM   #119
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One thing everyone seems to not realize is that the Cossack has ZOC. Which means that you can park him on a hill/ mountain in a pattern so that any enemy that wants to take your city has to go through 4 Zones of control to get to your city plus if you put cannons on the tiles with the Cossack then you are almost impossible to budge. then you can use the blitz ability to mop up the survivors.
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Old Dec 27, 2012, 03:52 AM   #120
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One thing everyone seems to not realize is that the Cossack has ZOC. Which means that you can park him on a hill/ mountain in a pattern so that any enemy that wants to take your city has to go through 4 Zones of control to get to your city plus if you put cannons on the tiles with the Cossack then you are almost impossible to budge. then you can use the blitz ability to mop up the survivors.
I love my Cossacks. They're my tanks of the ME and early industrial. Combine with artillery I dominated with them up until tanks. Makes wars alot faster then if I relied on Infantry alone.
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