Is there a way to....

One thing that I really hate about Civ 5 is there is no defense...

I absolutely hate it when the game destroys a infantry unit (with full hitpoints) by bombarding it with crossbowmen. Or a tireme sinks a frigate.... There should be no way for either of these to happen.

I groaned when a Roman trebuchet took out my musketmen in one barrage.... I nearly broke my glass desk when the crossbowmen took out my infantry unit....

Oh and what happened to obsoleting units???? The AI seems to be able to build anything at will.


So How do you keep ancient and medieval units from killing modern units?

Increase hitpoints...the expansion is addressing this.

As far as I know, there is no instant retaliation option against ranged attacks.

A Unit can take more ranged hits with increased "Defense vs Ranged Attacks" promotion.
On the other hand, a ranged unit will be destroyed quickly in melee combat - so it's a quick tactical issue.

The "spearman vs tank" situation is a standard part of Civilization games. I rationalize it by thinking of a "crossbow" in the Modern era as a group of guerrillas throwing Molitov cocktails or something. It's not an actual medieval crossbow unit by that point.

Gamewizard said:

Increase hitpoints...the expansion is addressing this.

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This doesn't affect Lrd_Dread's situation if damage also increases. The early previews of G&K were a bit misleading, because reviewers only spend a few hours with the game they're reviewing, so they get some details wrong.

Speaking of units : How about giving artillery+ a free range promotion instead of fixed range 3 ?

This way we will remove range 4 land bombard units. That would help AI a lot also.

And we could do same with battleships etc.

Additionally we could add -25 % ( or - 33 )to ranged blitz promotion ( ships included ).
Its very OP atm.

I'd be okay with adding a modifier to the ranged-blitz promotion. We could copy the -50% ranged damage attribute from fighters. Blitz would let us attack two targets, but at half the damage. This would still be useful since we'd have less overkill. Or it could be -25% damage...

Old blitz: 2 attacks at 100% damage = 200% damage.
New blitz: 2 attacks at 75% damage = 150% damage.

I'm less certain about changing the range promotion. If artillery start with range it would be inefficient to get that promotion with cannon (since it's wasted later). If we don't ever get the promotion, it's basically the same as removing the promotion. I'm hesitant to remove it from the game. I don't think range is particularly overpowered... blitz and march generally take priority.

Problem with range is AI stupidity.

1 range 3 frigate can take WHOLE AI navy - no matter how big - simply cuz when u engage them ur out of they range and AI is to dump to actually move his ship 1 title and THEN shoot.

And thats just an example.

1 range 3 ship and u can kill ALL ai ships! ALL... Think about it.
Personally i dont care if range on ships is fun or not, all i care is that it take that little challenge the AI could give on the water.

So yes im just giving a suggestion as to range promotion with artillery. However i will stick hardly for it being removed from navy until AI get improved.

Thalassicus said:

I'd be okay with adding a modifier to the ranged-blitz promotion. We could copy the -50% ranged damage attribute from fighters. Blitz would let us attack two targets, but at half the damage. This would still be useful since we'd have less overkill. Or it could be -25% damage...

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Is this nerf on all blitz ranged units, or on units with the +1 range promotion (as well as blitz)? I ask because it obviously seriously dings chu-ko-nus.

@MortalD
Could you clarify that a bit? I thought we were talking about artillery. A 3-range artillery is basically identical to a 2-range artillery with a +1-range promotion.

@Txurce
I'd be okay with buffing ckn's.

I don't think he like artillery possibly becoming 4 range, which isn't possible with 2 range + 1 range promotion. Artillery get indirect fire which is a promotion available to cannons as well.

I recognize that. I'm pointing out how these are basically the same:

• 3 range artillery, and cannot get the range promotion.
• "How about giving artillery and rocket artillery a free +1 range promotion instead of range of 3?"

Either one basically removes the range promotion. I don't feel this is necessary, because the range promotion seems equally or less powerful than Blitz and March. We can probably all agree the old version of Blitz was crazy for ranged units. It doubled their damage! (Now a more modest 100% damage.) I don't think range provides nearly the same advantage.

For siege units I'd rank them:

1. New blitz (100% damage)
2. Siege (130% strength)
3. Range
4. March

Archers

1. Blitz
2. March
3. Range

Light Ships

1. Blitz
2. Recon 1 (healing)
3. Targeting
4. Bombard
5. Range

Capital Ships

1. Blitz
2. Range
3. Siege
4. Bombard
5. Recon 1 (healing)

Thalassicus said:

Either one basically removes the range promotion. I don't think this is necessary, because the range promotion seems equally or less powerful than Blitz and March. We can probably all agree Blitz is crazy for ranged units. It doubles their damage! I don't think the others provide nearly the same advantage.

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Absolutely re: blitz. I pretty much take anything other than +1 range for artillery.

Giving artillery 2 range + 1 range promotion isn't the same as removing range from the game. You could get range on a trebuchet if you really went for it. Range is better than march for siege units as you wouldn't get them being attacked to need to heal.

What did you do with Longbowmen and the range promotion?

Dropping Ranged Blitz damage brings it closer to the other promotions, but it's still a clear first choice giving double xp as well

Merging range and indirect fire would make them a more interesting choice.

How often do you get Indirect Fire on trebs? It's in the same situation of available to trebs, and obsolete with Artillery. I find blitz and siege more useful than range or indirect fire. Even if we do pick range, we need at least a 100 xp trebuchet, which is tough to get so early in the game. I typically get the Siege promotion as soon as available. A siege unit with Siege needs at least 150 to get Range.

It's all a side point though... the main thing to consider is we'd be reducing the value of a promotion that's debatably less valuable than Blitz and Siege.

I edited my post earlier saying we could merge range and indirect fire, like you did with siege and volley. It would make it a higher priority promotion especially on rough terrain.

And I tend to beeline for blitz and come back to get range before seige, I want to keep my units alive first and do damage second. It's unlikely I'd get it on a trebuchet anyway

I'm not convinced about dropping Ranged Blitz attacks to 50% damage, it actually make ranged units less effective in some situations, if you move then fire you only do half damage, a unit without blitz would be able to move and do one attack at full damage.

Would the first attack at 100%, and the second attack at 50% damage be better?

I do agree that - 50 % is to much and not what i intended.
Unit with -50 % blitz will benefit only from the ability to split dmg BUT at the cost of loosing half his power when moved.

Suggested -25/33 should do just fine.

As for the artillery i only wanted to avoid range 4 land units as they r devastating vs AI.
I did NOT ask to remove range promotion. Artillery would simply get it for free - so it would start with range of 2 like cannon , but with free range making it 3.

Ofc if u have cannon with ranged promo, then that means it will be "wasted" upon upgrading to artillery. But same gos for indirect fire already.
I see no harm in "loosing" those promotions if unit i upgrade to have them by default.
I would even be against being it otherwise.

As for ships : What i try to note is that ships with range 3 are "un-kill-able" for the AI, and that annoy me to no end.

Optional : If possible you could "award" artillery an extra XP if its upgraded from cannon with range/indirect fire.
How much exp u normally need for range? U can have it on lvl 4 right ? Thats hmm 45 xp ? ( from lvl 3 to 4 )
So when upgrading from cannon, artillery would get 45 free exp for range and Indirect Fire promotion that cannon had.
90 exp if it had both.

Just thinking

rfxmills said:

Would the first attack at 100%, and the second attack at 50% damage be better?

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I don't think such coding is possible "with our current moding tools"

But OFC that would be the BEST solution to blitz!

Same with range: units would shoot at 75 % at range 2, 50 at range 3, and 25 % at range 4...

rfxmills said:

Giving artillery 2 range + 1 range promotion isn't the same as removing range from the game. You could get range on a trebuchet if you really went for it. Range is better than march for siege units as you wouldn't get them being attacked to need to heal.

What did you do with Longbowmen and the range promotion?

Dropping Ranged Blitz damage brings it closer to the other promotions, but it's still a clear first choice giving double xp as well

Merging range and indirect fire would make them a more interesting choice.

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I already treat blitz and march as more important than +1 range so if I knew it would obsolete at artillery I would never get it, which is the same as removing it from the game. I just don't see what the problem is with range four artillery late in the game.

Zaldron said:

I already treat blitz and march as more important than +1 range so if I knew it would obsolete at artillery I would never get it, which is the same as removing it from the game. I just don't see what the problem is with range four artillery late in the game.

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Don't worry. Its only my own suggestion. Unless ppl - lik you - will like it, it will not be implemented.

However i do think that -25/33 % for blitz is a "no brainer" giving how OP it is in vanilla.

MortalD said:

I do agree that - 50 % is to much and not what i intended.

As for ships : What i try to note is that ships with range 3 are "un-kill-able" for the AI, and that annoy me to no end.

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Most naval promotions are grossly unfair, because the AI doesn't benefit from them. They exist because enough players think having an additional way to pound a helpless AI makes the game more fun. Given this, the only reason to nerf something should be because it's OP and no fun. This is why I'm against nerfing blitz ranged units - they are a lot of fun. But if the consensus is that they are OP and no fun, then deal with it directly and drop the ranged-blitz promotion altogether.