Rat44 CCM - Ultimate Challenge

[Greebley]

Originally Posted by Northern Pike

we were weak relative to Greece even ten turns ago when we stopped building units.

When I checked we were strong against them. Unless I read it wrong?? That is one reason I didn't feel the need to build a lot more units.

I remember playing AW where we essentially lost because we built too many units and fell too far behind in tech. I am a bit worried about this here given the high unit costs.

[Northern Pike]

I've re-checked, and we're definitely weak relative to Greece. That's no surprise, when they've been building units at the deity discount since the beginning of the game with no wars. It's going to be effectively the same thing as attacking an island civ, even though they aren't literally on an island.

We've been discovered by the advanced continent, since there's an Indian war galleon off Quebec.

There's a big stack of fortified workers outside Charlottetown which can do something useful before we hit Enter.

BTW, since we can see that Greek missionary SW of Toronto, we should kill it.

[ThERat]

I had a look at the game and actually to establish an embassy with India is rather cheap, they have to be pretty close.

I will do that, do the trade and move more units towards Piraeus. My plan is to prepare 5-6 turns for the attack, then take Piraeus, us the saltpeter to upgrade more defenders and use the mobile forces at the other cities to take out whatever Greece throws at us.

I think we will need to play defensive for quite a few turns to destroy the Greek forces. This is like AW game after the initial contact, however, here we got a fairly large front, hence we need to be quick in defending the right spots.

[Greebley]

I must have somehow checked against the wrong civ then. I really thought I did check - and would have built more units had I known.

I agree if we switch the builds we should be able to attack soon. Might want to complete any banks though. We are seriously slipping in science.

[ThERat]

Pre turn

I do note that we have a new Civ here, India. Where did they come from?

Buy University from France for 200gpt, 430gold, iron, furs and elephants
This opens a host of new techs. especially intriguing would be to get medicine which some civs do not have
We get naval guns and sacred art from Greece and all their 219gold.

We can't afford medicine such a pity
I build an embassy with India cos it's pretty cheap and they are across the sea pretty close to us. We need to get over there
switch Quebec to a caravel, it will have to go for a suicide run but its worth the risk
swap Regina to Jolly Roger

defeat the missionary

IT we lose our missionary killer to an invisible unit

Turn 1 1505AD
continue with preparation for war, road building and amassing units
shifting units towards Piraeus

we do have an exploring boat that I send north to follow the Indian trail and it spots some greenish borders, we need to survive the IT

IT the invisible unit is repelled by a pike
we lost the exploring boat short of the green border

Turn 2 1510AD
in border skirmishes involving 3 missionaries, we gain 1 monk

send out another suicide runner spotting Indian borders

IT ugh, Thunder Bay deposes us and deflects to the Greek

Turn 3 - 1515AD
our income is slightly negative, but with a war soon this is going to change
our caravel has survived and ends up in safe waters
now to find more Civs, we also got Jolly Rogers

IT lose a missionary in the border skirmishes

Turn 4 - 1520AD
our exploring very productive rigger discovers Poland on our continent
they do not have any tech above us

declare war on Greece

attack on Piraeus, we get several retreats, lose 1 knight, take out 3 arques and 1 knight



culture bomb the city, get saltpeter within our borders
upgrade a few pikes, take out an arque LB pair there as well
load lots of units into Piraeus

on the norther borders, take out 4 enemy units, dig in troops

IT Greece focuses now on Pireaus
they pillage 2 tiles, defeat 2 of our units, we have no more saltpeter for now

Turn 5 - 1525AD
around Piraeus, take out 3 knights, 2 arques, 2 crusaders at the cost of 1 knight
at Victoria/Gatineau we take out 2 enemy units

defeat 3 arques at Halifax but lose 2 knights

we meet Persia, they are even on techs with us, very nice

IT at Pireaus we go 4-1, the castle on hills and 1 arque really helping us
pillager army moves in as well

at Victoria, we retreat 2 attacks


Turn 6 - 1530AD
at Vic, repel 4 attackers/pillagers
at halifax, defeat 2 arques, but lose 2 knight
at Piraeus, defeat 3 arques, 5 knights, 1LB and 2 trebs for the loss of 1 knight

in the north, defeat a Japanese to gain another monk

IT we go 6-5 on defense, many attacks at Piraeus

Turn 7 - 1535AD
attack one of the two bigger stacks at Piraeus, defeat 1 arque, 4 knight, 1 crusader, 1 cat, 1 bombard, 1 treb one invisible unit
lose 1 knight
nearby take out a hoplite/KB combo for the loss of 1 knight
gain a MGL that rushes a bank in Montreal

set up attack on Thermopylae

IT Indo-China declares war on India
Greeks start to get confused, attack 2 times at Piraeus and lose + pillage more


Turn 8 - 1540AD
there is a big pillager stack at Halifax, try whittle it down and gain a MGL
rush a bank in Winnipeg with it, take out 4 of them but lose 3 knights

attack Thermo, take out 2 arques, 1 hoplite, 1 mace, 1 cat and


save the monks as the next city is very close

at Piraeus, lose 2 knight trying to take out a crusader and knight, which eventually happens
set up attack against Thunder Bay

our traveling caravels spot new friends, Israel: sell them sacred art for 143gold and 22gpt
spot bluish borders too, a new friend next turn?

IT Greeks now mainly focus on pillaging, they attack but go 1-1
Greek stack moves between Montreal and Ottawa

Turn 9 - 1545AD
take out an arque at Surrey, one at Victoria, move stack next to Ephesus
at Halifax, defeat 2 arques for the loss of 1 knight

get Thundar Bay back defeating an arque and a hoplite losing 2 knights
clean up a little next to Pireaus, defeat 4 arques and 4 hopiltes for the loss of 1 knight

on the other continent, we meet Arabia, they are up only exploration
I smell better trading opportunities coming

IT Greece wants to talk and now goes east with big stacks
Thermo flips and we lose 1 arque in there

Turn 10 - 1550AD

the situation near Piraeus



take Ephesus (3 hoplites 1 arque) for the loss of 2 knights
take out 2 hoplites and regain Thermo

remove an areque/LB pair lose an enslaver though
remove and arque at Victoria
around Pireaus, try and work on stacks a little, take out 2 hoplites, 1 knight, 1 warrior for the loss of 1 knight

we can afford medicine now even at a steep price
get medicine from Spain for 3000g + 165gpt
sell Poland university for 75gpt and 103gold
get physics from Germany for medicine 12gpt and 160golg

finally get this deal:



IT Greek are running around like headless chicken, not attacking but moving the stacks


Turn 11 - 1555AD (play 11 turns to even turns out)
take out a small stack of 4 but lose 2 knights

make sure Ephesus and Thermo only hold minimal units inside in case of flips
need to attack a bis stack next to Piraeus, 4 arques and Lbs
lose 1 knight and manage to take down 5 arques, 4 LS, 1 pike and 1 LB, lose 2 knights
we have a roading crew that could reconnect saltpeter next turn, which I do recommend

finally we are strong compared to Greece

Now we are in very good shape for the next phase of the game. We should be able to overcome Greece once their stack have been destroyed
It might take some patience, but that should not be an issue.

We make a lot of money now at 281gpt and might want to grab trading opportunities if they arise
We will surely meet more Civs with the 2 caravels that move in opposite directions to circumnavigate the other continent

Boston can make 49spt right now and we might want to mine the mountain to get to 50spt
New York has too much food and some tiles still need to be mined

The situation

[ThERat]

Who is playing next, are we going back to Elephantium?

The Roster:
ThERat - played this time
Northern Pike
Greebley
Elephantium - up
CommandoBob - on deck

[Northern Pike]

For us to be strong relative to Greece already is brilliant progress.

And having contact with the other continent transforms our tech position--staying reasonably close to the leaders until we're ready for self-research should be no problem now.

It's a good break that our homeland is so close to the other continent--just a quick, efficient ferry trip when it's time to invade.

So there was room for one more civ on our continent, which is something of a surprise.

Thunder Bay's flip is the first I can recall in our CCM games due purely to cultural pressure, and not disloyal citizens.

[Elephantium]

I'll have some time to play on Sunday, so got it.

[Northern Pike]

A few points:

We have Exploration, so all our city attacks and other important operations now should be supported by garrisons built with foreign workers--or even better, with slaves, if it can be managed. To do this well generally requires a one-turn roading stack in addition to the workers used for the garrison, so don't be reluctant to move plenty of workers to the front--enough to support advances from the east and west, if you like. Of course we still have work to do developing our cities, but this is more important at the moment.

Please rationalize our dispostions in Mongolia so that every city that can benefit from the full three units on MP duty has them. We're employing too many specialists there.

To the extent that we can fit in any infrastructure builds beyond AF and CC, hospitals have to come first now that Medicine has wiped out our granaries. We may have the opportunity to Leader-rush a few, if no Small Wonders are available.

Bulgan and Hovd, being so close to our capital, need worker service more than most towns that are currently receiving it. I'd move workers to those places from cities such as Ulaangom, Choibalsan, and Erdenet, without worrying about the turns lost in transit. When the workers arrive irrigation should be a much higher priority than mining, and Bulgan's mined BG tile should be irrigated over.

There's a potential threefer in play, since the Germans and British have Free Artistry and Jurisprudence but not Ballistics. Unfortunately, I can't see a way of buying Ballistics that would leave us with sufficient gold to top up the second wave of deals, so there's too great a risk that it would turn into a very expensive onefer. But we should remember the possibility if any of our gpt payments end.

[Greebley]

We now have 3 science buildings vs only 2 cash buildings. This does make research faster than cash. The problem is you need to finish the research before you get the benefit which means getting the tech later.

The crossover point is therefore when we can take the 10 turns to research something and still have n-fers available. It might be worth getting the science buildings in the bigger towns so we can switch over if it seems reasonable.

[ThERat]

Greebley, even with a core like we have at the moment, at deity on this map, we can't match the science speed.

We will need to buy our way until the next Age. By then, we should be able to switch to self research.
Once Greece has been taken care, I agree to build all the science improvements, this will also help our weak culture standing.

[Greebley]

I think I disagree. It isn't faster to buy a tech than to research it - research is in fact more efficient.

However if research means you don't get a 2 for 1 deal, its no good. I don't think we are in yet a strong enough position to switch yet, but I think we will be before the next age. It all depends on where you are in tech compared to the AI.

Of course the other thing slowing us down is the fact we aren't getting the gold bonus with something like republic, but given the number of wars we like to fight, I guess that is inevitable.

[Elephantium]

It's been pretty slow going so far. Thermopylae flipped, but Greece hasn't really hurt us with their troop movements yet.

I'll be a few more days with my turnset, but I should be ready to hand it off by the weekend.

[Northern Pike]

Thanks for keeping us informed--always the most important thing.

[Elephantium]

Our lux deal with Britain ran out, and they want nearly 600 gold to renew it.

Other than that, Babylon/Iraq wants all our gold (1700) and 257gpt for Ballistics (which we still turn into a two or threefer).

Thoughts? I'd like to renew the lux deal, but I don't think it's quite worth that much gold. Likewise, Ballistics would be nice to open up a threefer, but we'll probably need more gold to pull that off.

[CommandoBob]

Originally Posted by Elephantium

Our lux deal with Britain ran out, and they want nearly 600 gold to renew it.

Other than that, Babylon/Iraq wants all our gold (1700) and 257gpt for Ballistics (which we still turn into a two or threefer).

Thoughts? I'd like to renew the lux deal, but I don't think it's quite worth that much gold. Likewise, Ballistics would be nice to open up a threefer, but we'll probably need more gold to pull that off.

Sounds like highway robbery to me.

However...if we don't have that luxury, how does it affect the sliders?


Roster
I will need a skip. Dead motherboard, if not worse.

[Elephantium]

So far, I just compensated with specialists. Better would be upping the lux slider by 10%.

[Northern Pike]

Effectively, then, the British want 30 gpt for the lux. So we can make our decision based on whether raising the lux rate 10% to return the specialists to real work costs us more or less than that, declining the deal if we basically break even.

Unfortunately, trying for the threefer is still too much of a gamble if we'd be left with nothing to top up the later deals.

Originally Posted by CommandoBob

I will need a skip. Dead motherboard, if not worse.

Sorry to hear that. But the timing of the skip may work out well, since the weekend will be a better time for me to play than next week.

[Elephantium]

IBT:

Greeks move 100 units. One of their LBs kills one of our

Knights. 0-1

Thermopylae flips. SPAARTAAA!

1560-
Try to retake Thermopylae:
Knight dies to Hoplite. No damage. 0-2
Horse archer retreats
Near Toronto:
Knights kill Hoplites x2 2-2
Knight kills Archer 3-2
Enslaver kills Archer. 4-2

Missionary kills LB 5-2

WE kills Arque outside Halifax, promotes to Vet 6-2

Knight retreats from Arque
Knight kills Hoplite 7-2

eKnight kills Hoplite 8-2
Knight kills Archer 9-2

Outside Thermo-
Knight kills Arque 10-2
Knight kills LB 11-2
Knight kills LB 12-2

IBT:
Greek LB dies to our MDI 13-2
Greek LB dies to our MDI 14-2
Greek Knight kills MDI 14-3
Greek Knight kills our Pike 14-4
Greek Hoplite kills our Enslaver 14-5

1565 -

Counterattack Greek Knight at Ephesus -> our 1/4 Knight wins

15-5

Thermopylae:
Knight dies to 3/4 Hoplite 15-6
Knight barely kills rHoplite 16-6
Knight kills 3/4 Hoplite and retakes the city! 17-6

Argos:
Knight kills Hoplite and clears a Garrison. 18-6
Knight kills Arque 19-6
Knight dies vs. Arque 19-7
Knight retreats

Near Toronto:
Knight dies to Hoplite. Drat. Garrison-supported, too. 19-8
Knight kills Hoplite 20-8

Knight kills Arque near Edmonton 21-8

Meet China. They lack Physics and Medicine, and they only

have 21 gold.

Near Greek attack:
Knight kills Arque 22-8
Knight kills Longsword 23-8
Knight retreats
Knight redlines Arque and then dies 23-9
Knight kills Arque 24-9
Knight retreats
Knight barely kills Longsword 25-9
Knight kills Longsword 26-9
Knight finishes off redlined Arque, barely 27-9
Missionary kills Longsword 28-9

Halifax: Knight kills Hoplite 29-9

IBT:

China complains about our exploring ship. We apologize.

Greek Knight kills our Knight near Greek attack 29-10
Longsword forces our Knight to retreat near Argos.

1570 -

Argos:
Treb dies to Arque 29-11
eKnight dies to Arque 29-12
eKnight retreats
Knight retreats
Knight kills Arque 30-12
Knight dies to Hoplite 30-13
Knight retreats
Knight dies and promotes the enemy Hoplite 30-14
Knight redlines the Hoplite and then dies 30-15
Knight dies to redlined Arque and promotes it 30-16
Knight kills the Arque 31-16
Knight finally kills the HERO HOPLITE 32-16



Knight kills the Longsword who forced our Garrison-busting

Knight to retreat. 33-16

Knight kills Greek Knight near Greek attack. 34-16
Knight kills Arque 35-16
eKnight kills LB 36-16

Knight dies to Arque 36-17
Knight kills Arque 37-17
Knight dies 37-18
Knight kills Arque 38-18
Knight retreats

Knight dies on Arque 38-19
Knight kills Arque 39-19

IBT:

LB dies on our Pike 40-19
Longsword dies on our Pike 41-19
LB kills our Spear 41-20
Arque pillages our Salt. Hey, I just hooked that up!

Argos and Victoria riot.

1575 -

Near Greek attack -
Knight kills Hoplite and promotes 42-20
eKnight dies to enemy Knight 42-21
Knight finishes him off 43-21
Knight kills LB 44-21
Knight dies to Arque 44-22

Near Ephesus -
Knight dies to Arque, no damage 44-23
Knight dies to Arque 44-24

Back near Greek attack / Byzantion:
Knight kills Hoplite 45-24
MDI kills Arque 46-24
Knight kills Arque 47-24

Argos: Knight kills Arque 48-24
Ephesus: Knight kills Arque 49-24
Knight kills Longsword 50-24
Knight kills LB 51-24
Knight kills Treb 52-24

Greek attack again...
MDI dies to Longsword 52-25
eKnight kills Longsword 53-25
eTW kills Longsword 54-25
A-Cav kills Longsword 55-25

IBT:

Britain ends our lux deal and wants 580 gold to renew it.
Germany complains about our ship; we apologize.

Greek soldiers force three of our Knights near Byzantion to

retreat
Knight dies on our Knight 56-25
LB dies on our TW 57-25
LB kills Knight 57-26
LB kills MDI 57-27
LB kills TW 57-28
LB kills Treb and captures a Slave 57-29
LB kills A-Cav 57-30
Knight kills Knight at Argos x2 57-32

1580 -

Argos:
Our Knights kill two Greek Knights 59-32

Rhodes:
Knight retreats
Knight retreats, doing 2hp damage.
Knight kills Arque 60-32
Knight retreats
Knight dies, no damage 60-33
Knight kills Arque 61-33
Knight kills Arque 62-33
Knight kills LB 63-33



Knight kills Arque 64-33

Culture-bomb Rhodes. It opens the way to Delphi and Mycenae

quite nicely.

Near Greek attack:
Knight kills Arque 65-33
Knight kills LB 66-33
Missionary kills LB 67-33
eKnight kills LB and produces Patton! 68-33

Knight retreats
Knight kills Arque 69-33

Make the deal for Britain's Incense; the lux slider will cost us ~95 gpt.

IBT:

Greek Knight kills one of our Knights near Mycenae 69-34

Vancouver riots. Sigh, I just scrolled through the towns to check happiness

Lose one of our exploring ships to the deep.

1585 -

Knight kills Arque 70-34
Knight dies to Arque 70-35
Knight retreats vs. Arque
Knight kills Arque 71-35
Missionary kills LB 72-35

Mycenae:
Knight retreats
Knight kills Arque 73-35
Knight retreats
Knight retreats

Attack blunted

Near Toronto and Greek attack:
Knight kills LB and promotes 74-35
Knight dies after redlining Arque 74-36
Knight kills Arque 75-36
Knight kills Hoplite 76-36
Knight kills MDI 77-36
Knight kills Knight 78-36
Knight kills Longsword 79-36
Missionary kills redlined Arque 80-36
Knight kills LB 81-36
Knight kills Arque 82-36

Byzantion:
Knight retreats
Knight kills Arque 83-36
Knight dies to Arque 83-37
Knight kills 3/4 Arque 84-37
Knight dies on 3/4 Arque and promotes it 84-38
Knight kills 3/5 Arque 85-38



Knight dies to stray redlined Arque 84-39

We meet Portugal. They're up the same three techs as most rivals, lack Horses, and want those plus 2000 and 219gpt for Ballistics

Near Rhodes - Knight barely kills Greek Knight 85-39

IBT:

Portugal complains about our ship that discovered them. We apologize.

Greek LB dies on our Pike near Byzantion. 86-39
Argos riots due to resistance being quelled.
Ditto for Ephesus and Thermo.

1590 -

Delphi:
Knight retreats
Knight kills Hoplite 87-39
Knight kills Arque and promotes 88-39
Knight retreats from Hoplite
Knight retreats
Knight kills Hoplite! 89-39
Enslaver dies vs. LB 89-40
Knight kills LB and... 90-40



Knight kills Longsword 91-40
Knight dies to Arque 91-41
Knight dies to Arque 91-42
Knight retreats
Knight kills Arque 92-42
Knight barely kills redlined Arque 93-42
Knight kills redlined Longsword 94-42

IBT:

Greek Knight kills our PIke
Greek Knight kills our Knight
Greek Knight kills another Pike
... 94-45

Byzantion riots due to quelling of resistance.
Same thing in Rhodes.

French complete Arc de Triomphe

1595 -

Knight dies to arque 94-46
Knight kills Hoplite 95-46
Knight dies to the same Arque 95-47
Next Knight kills the hero 96-47
Knight kills Arque 97-47
Knight kills Knight 98-47
Knight kills Knight 99-47
at Delphi:
Knight kills Knight 100-47
Knight kills Enslaver 101-47
Knight kills Knight 102-47
Knight kills Arque 103-47
Knight kills Knight 104-47

Near Sparta:
Knight kills Knight 105-47

Notes:

Piraeus and Thermopylae are about to riot ... I didn't MM this turn.
Greece is crumbling. I think you'll be able to finish them off during your turnset, NP!

Other than that, I think we're in good shape.

[Northern Pike]

Good work. That's what we have to do in the four-to-four era--push through the losses and keep taking cities.

I've got it.