Current (SVN) development discussion thread

[Leoreth]

Sorry about that, fix is committed.

[strijder20]

Leoreth, do you have to have Zoroastrianism as a state religion to construct Fire Temples?
If so, could you make that a little more clear please in the Civilopedia? It's a bit annoying to spread Zoroastrianism to 12 cities and build temples in it and then discovers you can't build the cathedrals

[Leoreth]

According to the XML they don't, though.

[strijder20]

Originally Posted by Leoreth

According to the XML they don't, though.

Well, look: in this save I have about 10 Zoroastrian temples, but can't build Fire Temples anywhere.
Oh, and why does the AI refuse to trade away furs and dyes (corporation resources) with the red text: 'Surely you must be joking' while sheep can be traded?

[Fresol]

Originally Posted by strijder20

Oh, and why does the AI refuse to trade away furs and dyes (corporation resources) with the red text: 'Surely you must be joking' while sheep can be traded?

Any pictures? If they don't have Textile Industry corporation they'll be willing to trade them, otherwise not.

[strijder20]

Originally Posted by Fresol

Any pictures? If they don't have Textile Industry corporation they'll be willing to trade them, otherwise not.

Ooo, I thought they were always willing to trade it if you have Textile Industry. America indeed has Textile Industry, Germany does not. Thanks!

[Fresol]

Meanwhile I don't understand why you can't build Zoroastrian Cathedrals, the XML file seems to be fine.

[strijder20]

Originally Posted by Fresol

Meanwhile I don't understand why you can't build Zoroastrian Cathedrals, the XML file seems to be fine.

In the save I posted about four posts ago, I'm not able to build any.

[Fresol]

Originally Posted by strijder20

In the save I posted about four posts ago, I'm not able to build any.

Yes I checked your save. In my memory I've never built a Zoroastrian Fire temple before. Since you don't even have the option to build it (no ?/? temples needed screen) I suspect there's something wrong with the code. But in Civilopedia and the XML file it looks fine, I can't find the mistake. (I suspect Fire temple is not enabled by Music or something, but I don't know how to confirm it, it doesn't seem to show up in the XML file?)

A picture of what the problem looks like:

Spoiler:

Notice you don't have to option to build Zoroastrian Fire temple, unlike Protestant Cathedral.

[iOnlySignIn]

Originally Posted by strijder20

Oh, and why does the AI refuse to trade away furs and dyes (corporation resources) with the red text: 'Surely you must be joking' while sheep can be traded?

Furs and Dyes are Happiness Resources while Sheep is a Health Resource. Health Resources are valued less highly by the AI than Happiness Resources and have lower attitude thresholds for their willingness to trade.

So try improving your relations (and make sure you have Happiness Resources that the AI want) to see if the same still happens.

[King Coltrane]

I played a French UHV game today with the most recent SVN and it was really good!

some thoughts:

UHV1) too easy. 20,000 culture is way too easy for the french. I had 20,000 around 1600 AD. 30,000 would be a real challenge! but maybe 25,000 would be a good compromise.

UHV2) this was really tough, but in a good way! I got rifling as fast as i could so i could start my european domination. germany came at me before i was ready, but i hid behind my walls long enough to build a counter-force with which i took most of germany. they collapsed rather than vassalizing, but i knew what the future held, so i was ok with it. i then started my war with spain (who had conquered portugal) in 1695. I brought my cav. rifles and heavy cannons down hard, but discovered that their conquistador's get defensive bonuses, making everything a bit harder. anyway, i took all of iberia and they still wouldnt vassalize! so i accepted north africa and a peace treaty. they soon after collapsed... oh well.

Next up was Prussia, who had a DP with Turkey. it was about this time i realized that TURKEY WAS A BEAST! they got all 3 conquerors and retained the huge culture from the native cities! anyway, I managed to peace vassalize iran and egypt (and had the vikings before) and started my great war with a huge civic switch to republic and occupation and others (NAPOLEON!) I capitulated prussia pretty quickly and then had to blitz through the balkans and mexico to get both 50% goals. i managed to succeed in capitulating turkey as well as taking a few cities in each region to get past the necessary percentage. it was exciting!

HOWEVER the goal never checked. i got to 1817 i think and it still said not yet. i think this needs to be fixed.

UHV3) standard as always. fun, but easy. and nice synergy with the first UHV also. Well done!

so again, the check for UHV needs to be examined/fixed. otherwise it was all very fun. And england was a teching beast!

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

Originally Posted by King Coltrane

I played a French UHV game today with the most recent SVN and it was really good!

some thoughts:

UHV1) too easy. 20,000 culture is way too easy for the french. I had 20,000 around 1600 AD. 30,000 would be a real challenge! but maybe 25,000 would be a good compromise.

24,000 would be better. We want the number to be divisible by GAs.

Originally Posted by King Coltrane

UHV2) this was really tough, but in a good way! I got rifling as fast as i could so i could start my european domination. germany came at me before i was ready, but i hid behind my walls long enough to build a counter-force with which i took most of germany. they collapsed rather than vassalizing, but i knew what the future held, so i was ok with it. i then started my war with spain (who had conquered portugal) in 1695. I brought my cav. rifles and heavy cannons down hard, but discovered that their conquistador's get defensive bonuses, making everything a bit harder. anyway, i took all of iberia and they still wouldnt vassalize! so i accepted north africa and a peace treaty. they soon after collapsed... oh well.

Next up was Prussia, who had a DP with Turkey. it was about this time i realized that TURKEY WAS A BEAST! they got all 3 conquerors and retained the huge culture from the native cities! anyway, I managed to peace vassalize iran and egypt (and had the vikings before) and started my great war with a huge civic switch to republic and occupation and others (NAPOLEON!) I capitulated prussia pretty quickly and then had to blitz through the balkans and mexico to get both 50% goals. i managed to succeed in capitulating turkey as well as taking a few cities in each region to get past the necessary percentage. it was exciting!

You never gunned for England? I realize it's not part of the checklist but still,
You have to realize Napoleon's ambition.
It would have helped with your England problem as well.
I keep saying this, but if you're playing a civ that has direct access to a problem power, of course they're not going to be an issue, but it's when you're playing a civ
that can't do anything about it (Japan, Aztecs, Ethiopia, etc.) it's a problem.

[King Coltrane]

fair enough with the 24000.

as for england, i was perfectly happy to let them tech and trade with me and i had a defense pact with them since around 1600. they provided me cotton (from india) WAY before any other sources were available. they were actually a great ally against spain, prussia, and turkey, providing naval patrols and city bombardment ahead of my ground forces.

sometimes you dont need to control an adversary to gain maximum benefit.

[NerfCothons]

Originally Posted by King Coltrane

so i decided to try out phoenicia just to see how they played... (and i know they arent up to DoC specs yet)

so some things are horribly wrong.

1) weird trade things/underwhelming UP/UB: so I have Kition (founded on copper on Crete), Carthage, and Carthago Nova, and Great Lighthouse. this should mean 3 trade routes per city! I have open borders with greece, egypt, and persia, so there are lots of choices for these routes. by my count, i should be earning 21 gold per turn from trade (based on the provided totals in the city screen) yet i'm losing 3 gpt! in the interior advisor screen, I am told that this cost is due to city maintenance costs of... 3gpt. and thats it! when i WB'd in glasssmiths to all 3 cities, my income (with 4 routes per city) rose to... -3 gpt! STILL! so it seems that not only does the UP kinda suck, but the UB does as well! I get that the commerce goes to science, but still. it feels like my trade routes are worthless, especially as city maintenance eats up almost half my profits.

2) useless UU: the bireme is sorta better than a galley, but absolutely worse than a trireme... against both galleys and triremes. and i'll only ever have to deal with triremes anyway, whether barb, roman, or greek. even if i have to face a galley, theres no reason not to use triremes. and since the Poeni are dependent on trade, ill have OB with everyone anyway, negating the other facet of the bireme.

3) UHV's: 1) control 5 cities: between levant, africa, spain, and need for dyes, easy enough. 2) control 4 dyes: this is actually pretty tough, since only 2 dyes are consistently easily available. its pretty common that egypts dye is free, but you will NEED to fight rome (or persia) for the last dye in the accessible world. and while this is good, its extremely hard right now, as ill get to. 3) biggest map: easy, but meh.

suggestions:

UP: trade routes generate gold instead of/in addition to commerce. im not sure which is better, but essentially carthage/phoenicia should be rich, not necessarily advanced. so i think gold over commerce should work for this.

UB: Why glasssmith? I dont think that phoenician glass was as big as the purple industry anyway, so why is this the UB? I think an interesting idea would be to have the UB as "Temple of Baal" which replaces the pagan temple and provides +1 trade routes. it would be available earlier (so it would actually be useful) and would be more in line with the theme of phoenicia (while still having essentially the same effect as the glasssmith)

UU: while i understand the desire to use a ship UU, i dont see it as that realistic. phoenician ships/crews werent THAT much better than greek counterparts, though there were marginally better. And while i think the current UU does capture this unimpressive distinction, i think there are more interesting units to use. I would not use an elephant replacement, because they didnt really make that big a difference/werent that unique to carthage. I wouldnt use Numid. merc's, because Rome used them just as effectively (maybe add this unit to the mercenary pool?) Instead i would use the "Sacred Band", a spearman replacement with +1 strength (5 total) and the amphibious promotion. seems useful, interesting, and accurate. OR a swordsman replacement (even if spearman graphics) without the city attack bonus, but +1 strength (so 7) and amphibious. The latter would probably be better, as it would sync up with carthaginian dates better (ie you'd have to research iron working) and it would give carthage a chance against Rome while not being overpowered or guaranteeing victory.

UHV's:
1) found 5 coastal medit. cities (rather than just control... i think this represents phoenician colonization better) by 100 BCE... seems reasonable
2) I like the dye UHV too... i say keep it as is. with the UU, UB, and UP changes, this should be more fun and feasible.
3) control the entire western med. by say... 300 AD. or Eliminate Rome.

(i think all these dates are sorta off... the phoenicians should spawn in 1000 bce, not 1200. they should really have to colonize by say, 300 BCE, and they should have to eliminate Rome/control the Med by 100 BCE. I know this makes them a very short play, but i think that would be exciting!)

what do you think of these proposed changes?

I like these UU suggestions. As far as the history is concerned, at least through the lens of the second punic war, it seems like a cavalry unit would be most appropriate. In every one of Hannibal's major battles the Roman infantry was vastly superior to his ragtag infantry but superior cavalry and flanking maneuvers, or on some occasions surprise attacks from his small elite infantry corp, were the sluggish Legions' undoing. On the other hand, he was never able to muster the strength to take on Rome directly, so perhaps your elimination of the city attack bonus is appropriate.

From a gameplay perspective, I feel like Phoenicia needs a counter to the free legions. Mercanaries might be the way to do it. Perhaps adding Numidian Cavs to a merc pool that can only be accessed from North Africa as a counter to Legions will help. Mercs are unreliable and often have ridiculous costs associated with ridiculous promotions. Combining an amphibious sacred band unit with an interesting and effective mercenary force could make taking on the zounds of free Roman Legions both interesting and doable.

Another thought, Elephants as a siege weapon, give them collateral damage.

[King Coltrane]

i dont like how focused people get on the carthaginian elephants. they didnt really do anything (As most died en route) and other armies (makedon, seleukia, ptolemy, porus, maurya, etc) used them to better effect.

i still stick by my Sacred Band UU, but we could also give numidian cav. flanking against swords/axes. might be too much, but i never understood why cav. archers didnt have this (rather than flanking against siege) in the first place.

(also if this was done, it should not be instead of the Sacred Band)

[Leoreth]

Originally Posted by King Coltrane

I played a French UHV game today with the most recent SVN and it was really good!

some thoughts:

UHV1) too easy. 20,000 culture is way too easy for the french. I had 20,000 around 1600 AD. 30,000 would be a real challenge! but maybe 25,000 would be a good compromise.

Okay, 20k was a first guess, and I haven't finished my own test game yet. Will become harder.

UHV2) this was really tough, but in a good way! I got rifling as fast as i could so i could start my european domination. germany came at me before i was ready, but i hid behind my walls long enough to build a counter-force with which i took most of germany. they collapsed rather than vassalizing, but i knew what the future held, so i was ok with it. i then started my war with spain (who had conquered portugal) in 1695. I brought my cav. rifles and heavy cannons down hard, but discovered that their conquistador's get defensive bonuses, making everything a bit harder. anyway, i took all of iberia and they still wouldnt vassalize! so i accepted north africa and a peace treaty. they soon after collapsed... oh well.

Next up was Prussia, who had a DP with Turkey. it was about this time i realized that TURKEY WAS A BEAST! they got all 3 conquerors and retained the huge culture from the native cities! anyway, I managed to peace vassalize iran and egypt (and had the vikings before) and started my great war with a huge civic switch to republic and occupation and others (NAPOLEON!) I capitulated prussia pretty quickly and then had to blitz through the balkans and mexico to get both 50% goals. i managed to succeed in capitulating turkey as well as taking a few cities in each region to get past the necessary percentage. it was exciting!

HOWEVER the goal never checked. i got to 1817 i think and it still said not yet. i think this needs to be fixed.

That's great, I'll look at the check.

[strijder20]

Not sure if this is the thread to post it, but the Dutch name for Stra(ringel-S)burg should be Straatsburg, and the Dutch name for Frankfort should be Frankfurt.

[iOnlySignIn]

Agreed. 3rd Carthaginian UHV should be to collapse/conquer/vassalize/raze Rome by 145 BC (3rd Punic War).

IMO any sort of "largest map" UHV is pointless and boring since the map is (mostly) fixed and known to the player.

[Leoreth]

The "Ringel-S" (ß) is called sharp s, by the way (the usual way to transcribe it is ss). Suggestions noted.

[Acmeandco]

In the loading screen it specifies that "Colonize" means to found a certain number of cities and not conquer. However, the British victory condition says colonize, but conquering suffices.