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Old Apr 30, 2012, 03:52 PM   #981
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I also think saving GAs for the bombs is better. My guesstimate of 120 turns post-liberalism was overly pessimistic I think. I think settle in Bombay. See my post below

PPP looks pretty good to me - my only question would be about Wealth building in Delhi. Would be nice if there was enough in the empire that Delhi could be free to continue building a Christian Cathedral. I trust your judgement in this C63.

@Sleepless - re: the question of culture buildings vs building culture. Culture buildings benefit from the +XXX% of Cathedrals and Free Speech; building culture doesn't. A 60 monastery would produce 7/turn with +250% modifiers. That's a break-even time of only 8.5 turns. Monuments if we don't already have them are 30 / 3.5 = 8.5 turns. Libraries are 12.8 turns. Theatres are 4.7 turns.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 04:06 PM   #982
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A case *could* be made for settling the GArtist right now in Bombay.

* We can be confident that Bombay will want at least one GA bomb. Also the city is highly unlikely to be captured (we our #$%&ed if that happened!) so in that respect the bomb won't be wasted.
* The +3 shouldn't be overlooked. We essentially convert it to 3 raw via the slider. So a GArtist is kind of worth 17 raw .
* My guess above was we could expect ~70 turns post-liberalism, ~20 turns pre-liberalism.
* Bombay still needs to build 2 cathedrals, let's guess 10 turns each. So city is likely to have 20 turns@ 50% (current situation), 10 turns @ +150%, 10 turns @ +200%, 50 turns @ +250%.
* Settled GArtist is therefore worth 14*1.5*20 + 17*(2.5*10 + 3*10 + 3.5*50) = 14*30 + 17*230 = 4330.

It's close I'll admit, but perhaps shouldn't be discounted completely.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 05:28 PM   #983
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We have an idle GA already? I missed that, I was referring to next GP. Maybe settle the existing one now, save the next to bomb? Can we guess how many GA will we need to bomb altogether?
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 05:58 PM   #984
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Just have to be careful you choose the GA and not GP for the Gage as they are both on the same tile.
Shouldn't this be the other way around, be careful you use the GP for the Golden Age, not the GA!
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 06:08 PM   #985
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Attached is a spreadsheet I put together kind of detailing each of our legendary cities. As you might expect, there are a whole host of assumptions, eg, what turns we get Liberalism, cathedrals built, etc. It should give reasonably good ballpark figures though.

I am expecting we will want to bomb 13 GArtists, 6 in Bombay, 7 in Kyoto. Obviously we can settle one in Bombay now, in which case it will only get 5 bombed later.

I'll try put together another spreadsheet to figure if/how we can get the extra 12 GArtists desired.

As for Golden Age - DEFINITELY use the GProphet for this!

Edited to add: Note that the spreadsheet assumes we lose the race to Liberalism. If we win, then things only get better
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 06:17 PM   #986
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I've put the above spreadsheet on google docs:

Legendary Culture

It should be visible to anyone with the link, though I haven't given public edit access.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 07:50 PM   #987
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I've also created a spreadsheet that attempts to model our production.

GPP Production

In theory I can see us producing another 12 GArtists by ~T235, which is just what we need

Edit: Though, should note that 2 of them come from Delhi and Bombay, which have unfortunately high chance of being non-artist (~55% and ~36% respectively). I'm hoping there is some scope to squeeze out an extra GArtist with some late game MM.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 11:48 PM   #988
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Shouldn't this be the other way around, be careful you use the GP for the Golden Age, not the GA!
Well thats what you get when your trying to rush write a post however small. Yep def the prophet for the golden age!!!..
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 11:55 PM   #989
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@AJ Don't think I explained myself quite right on the culture buildings. What I meant was it would be better to run artists @14 culture before modifiers per turn compared to the small amount of culture from buildings. So after the cathederals (which I think we need to build in all legendary cities)are up max artists. We'll have the AP hammers to help build buildings if thats better than building culture.
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Old May 01, 2012, 12:09 AM   #990
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Yes, I agree, definitely max artists once the cathedrals are up. I'm expecting Bombay can assign 5 (steal Osaka's corn), and Kyoto 6 or 7 (farm over a cottage, grow to size 13).

The AP hammers and city tile can slow build some things as you correctly point out. Order of preference should be: Theatre (post Drama) -> Monuments -> Monasteries. I don't think we'll be encountering any other culture producing buildings after those.
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Old May 01, 2012, 12:25 AM   #991
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I notice that after Bombay steals Osaka's corn, Osaka won't have enough food to support many artist specialists. I think we can safely assign up to 2 Merchants in this city since it won't be producing a great person, ever.

As we get further in to the game, more cities will fit this bill. Switching from artists to merchants will help increase the culture slider, or pay for the upkeep of more troops to defend.
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Old May 01, 2012, 01:41 AM   #992
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PPP looks good to me!

Thanks for the Artist generation analysis aj!
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Old May 01, 2012, 02:22 AM   #993
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I notice that after Bombay steals Osaka's corn, Osaka won't have enough food to support many artist specialists. I think we can safely assign up to 2 Merchants in this city since it won't be producing a great person, ever.

As we get further in to the game, more cities will fit this bill. Switching from artists to merchants will help increase the culture slider, or pay for the upkeep of more troops to defend.
Agreed.. Apart from military (when needed) all satellite cities should be building wealth to raise the culture slider and when there not going to produce a GP change artists to merchants.
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Old May 01, 2012, 03:39 AM   #994
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I've had a chance to look at the save. My views on the MM for each of our cities:

Delhi: Finish the Stupa. Grow onto cottages - need to get workers here to build them. An aqueduct build in the future is worth 2, aka, 1 artist = 14. That's GREAT value.

Bombay: Finish the Mandir ASAP then work on other cathedrals. Don't grow the city any further ( issues). Eventually it will run 5 artists.

Vijay: Stick with 5 artists.

Patal: Grow 1 more pop. Later on it can run 5 artists. Up until Liberalism work the gold/gem mines though.

Varanasi: 4 artists.

Osaka: 2 merchants.

Tokyo: 4 artists. Steal one of Osaka's farms.

Kyoto: Grow to size 12 while building NE and Hindu Mandir. At size 12 can assign 7 artists with a small food deficit.

Agra: 4 artists.


I think we can sell our last source of Gems to Cyrus for 7 gpt. We have enough excess right now.
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Old May 01, 2012, 04:32 AM   #995
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Sure I sold our 2 sources of gems before I hooked up the third as well. Once we raise the culture slider we can sell the gold as well.

Health. Delhi is about to pop its borders very shortly which will bring the cow into our culture so we can fort that now or pasture soon.

Assuming along the way we will get calendar for the nana's as well.
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Old May 01, 2012, 08:16 AM   #996
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Playing now. Just noticed 5 cats next to Bombay. Are they supposed to stay there or should they go for one of the border cities? Also think Osaka still has enough green tiles to generate a GA in the future, are we sure we want merchants there?
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Old May 01, 2012, 08:56 AM   #997
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Playing now. Just noticed 5 cats next to Bombay. Are they supposed to stay there or should they go for one of the border cities? Also think Osaka still has enough green tiles to generate a GA in the future, are we sure we want merchants there?
I moved the cats towards Palitpura just in case Hammir declared though we would have been stuffed anyway without engineering they would take to long to get there so was going to bring them back to Kyoto. They don't get defence bonuses so no harm having them move around as long as there where they should be when something hits the fan.
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Old May 01, 2012, 09:32 AM   #998
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I played my turnset (1010AD to 1080AD) - it was a nail-biting one.
Save is uploaded.

Good news first:
Turn 166 (1060AD): we were elected AP resident. Note the date, we'll need it.

Click image for larger version

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Turn 167 (1070AD): we were first to Lib and took Nat as the free tech next turn. Liz went for Economics meanwhile.

Click image for larger version

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Bad news:
Turn 168 (1080AD): another GProphet was born in Delhi.

Now, the REAL BAD news:
Spoiler:
Click image for larger version

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Click image for larger version

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ID:	320229


Upload log
Spoiler:
Here is your Session Turn Log from 1010 AD to 1080 AD:

Turn 161, 1010 AD: Hinduism has spread in Opis.
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Gandhi's Golden Age has begun!!!
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Gandhi adopts Pacifism!
Turn 161, 1010 AD: Pataliputra celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!

Turn 162, 1020 AD: Pataliputra celebrates "We Love the Prime Minister Day"!!!
Turn 162, 1020 AD: Johannes Kepler (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 163, 1030 AD: Mansagawa/Huayanagawa has proven that the world is round!

Turn 164, 1040 AD: You have discovered Education!
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Isaac Newton (Great Scientist) has been born in Babylon (Hammuragawa)!
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Elizagawa adopts Free Market!
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Elizagawa adopts Theocracy!
Turn 164, 1040 AD: Hypatia (Great Scientist) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 165, 1050 AD: The borders of Delhi have expanded!
Turn 165, 1050 AD: The borders of Tokyo have expanded!
Turn 165, 1050 AD: Kobo-Daishi (Great Prophet) has been born in a far away land!

Turn 166, 1060 AD: Huayanagawa has 50 gold available for trade.
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Elizagawa has 110 gold available for trade.
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Genghigawa has 80 gold available for trade.
Turn 166, 1060 AD: Your land area: 199 (11.15%) is close to the Domination Limit: 1070 (60.00%)
Turn 166, 1060 AD: The Spiral Minaret has been built in a far away land!
Turn 166, 1060 AD: The Apostolic Palace voting members have announced their decision: Apostolic Palace Election (Winner Proposes Apostolic Palace Resolutions) (Requires 101 of 253 Total Votes)

Turn 167, 1070 AD: Kyoto will become unhealthy on the next turn.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Elizagawa has 220 gold available for trade.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Your land area: 199 (11.15%) is close to the Domination Limit: 1070 (60.00%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Kyoto will grow to size 13 on the next turn.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Gandhi is the first to discover Liberalism!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: You have discovered Liberalism!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: St. Thomas Aquinas (Great Prophet) has been born in Delhi (Gandhi)!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Deal Canceled: Gold to Hatsegawa for Gold Per Turn (4)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Deal Canceled: Open Borders to Hatsegawa for Open Borders
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Hatsegawa has declared war on you!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Hatsegawa refuses to talk.
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Hatsegawa's War Chariot (5.50) vs Gandhi's Axeman 16 (Vijayanagara) (2.55)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Combat Odds: 99.4%
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (Extra Combat: -10%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (Extra Combat: +10%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: (Class Attack: -100%)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 16 (Vijayanagara) is hit for 28 (69/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 16 (Vijayanagara) is hit for 28 (41/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 16 (Vijayanagara) is hit for 28 (13/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Hatsegawa's War Chariot is hit for 13 (87/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Hatsegawa's War Chariot is hit for 13 (74/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Gandhi's Axeman 16 (Vijayanagara) is hit for 28 (0/100HP)
Turn 167, 1070 AD: Hatsegawa's War Chariot has defeated Gandhi's Axeman 16 (Vijayanagara)!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: While defending, your Axeman 16 (Vijayanagara) was destroyed by a Egyptian War Chariot!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: While defending, your Fast Worker 5 (Delhi) was destroyed by a Egyptian War Chariot!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: The Dai Miao has been built in a far away land!
Turn 167, 1070 AD: A Spy has been stumbled upon while operating near the Indian city of Delhi!

Turn 168, 1080 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Kyoto!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: The enemy has been spotted near Kyoto!
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Kyoto has grown to size 13.
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Kyoto has become unhealthy.
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Elizagawa has 310 gold available for trade.
Turn 168, 1080 AD: You are the worst enemy of Hatsegawa.
Turn 168, 1080 AD: Your land area: 199 (11.15%) is close to the Domination Limit: 1070 (60.00%)
Turn 168, 1080 AD: You have discovered Nationalism!


Autolog
Spoiler:
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 161/500 (1010 AD) [01-May-2012 10:04:14]
Golden Age begins
Osaka begins: Palace (27 turns)
100% Research: 457 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
0% Gold: -47 per turn, 382 in the bank

After End Turn:
Delhi grows to size 14
Bombay finishes: Hindu Mandir

Other Player Actions:
Civics Change: Gandhi(India) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Pacifism'

Turn 162/500 (1020 AD) [01-May-2012 10:21:09]
Bombay begins: Buddhist Stupa (6 turns)
A Farm was built near Pataliputra
A Mine was built near Agra
100% Research: 459 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
0% Gold: -36 per turn, 335 in the bank

After End Turn:
Delhi finishes: Buddhist Stupa
Osaka grows to size 9
A Village was built near Tokyo
Kyoto grows to size 11

Turn 163/500 (1030 AD) [01-May-2012 10:36:32]
Delhi begins: Christian Cathedral (4 turns)
Team contact made: Mansagawa/Huayanagawa
Player contact made: Tokugawa of Mali
Player contact made: Tokugawa of Inca
100% Research: 471 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
0% Gold: -43 per turn, 329 in the bank

After End Turn:
Kyoto finishes: National Epic
A Hamlet was built near Kyoto
Agra grows to size 8

Turn 164/500 (1040 AD) [01-May-2012 10:43:02]
Kyoto begins: Hindu Mandir (6 turns)
A Farm was built near Osaka
A Cottage was built near Delhi
100% Research: 479 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
0% Gold: -44 per turn, 301 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Education
Pataliputra grows to size 11
Kyoto grows to size 12

Other Player Actions:
Attitude Change: Cyrusgawa (Persia) towards Hammuragawa (Babylon), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Attitude Change: Hammuragawa (Babylon) towards Cyrusgawa (Persia), from 'Pleased' to 'Friendly'
Civics Change: Elizagawa(England) from 'Mercantilism' to 'Free Market'
Civics Change: Elizagawa(England) from 'Organized Religion' to 'Theocracy'

Turn 165/500 (1050 AD) [01-May-2012 10:49:36]
Research begun: Liberalism (3 Turns)
Research begun: Liberalism (3 Turns)
A Farm was built near Tokyo
100% Research: 521 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
0% Gold: -61 per turn, 257 in the bank

After End Turn:
Delhi's borders expand
Delhi finishes: Christian Cathedral
Tokyo's borders expand
A Village was built near Kyoto

Turn 166/500 (1060 AD) [01-May-2012 10:57:30]
Delhi begins: Christian Monastery (2 turns)
100% Research: 533 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
0% Gold: -61 per turn, 196 in the bank

After End Turn:
Bombay finishes: Buddhist Stupa
A Hamlet was built near Osaka

Turn 167/500 (1070 AD) [01-May-2012 11:01:58]
Bombay begins: Christian Cathedral (5 turns)
A Pasture was built
100% Research: 535 per turn
0% Espionage: 10 per turn
0% Gold: -63 per turn, 135 in the bank

After End Turn:
Tech research finished: Liberalism
Delhi finishes: Christian Monastery
St. Thomas Aquinas (Great Prophet) born in Delhi
Kyoto grows to size 13

Other Player Actions:
Hatsegawa (Egypt) declares war on Gandhi (India)
While defending in Egyptian territory near Satsuma, Axeman 16 (Vijayanagara) loses to Egyptian War Chariot (3.70/5) (Prob Victory: 0.6%)
While defending in the wild near Kyoto, Fast Worker 5 (Delhi) loses to Egyptian War Chariot (5.00/5) (Prob Victory: 99.4%)
Attitude Change: Hatsegawa (Egypt) towards Gandhi (India), from 'Cautious' to 'Annoyed'

Turn 168/500 (1080 AD) [01-May-2012 11:07:45]
Tech acquired (trade, lightbulb, hut, espionage): Nationalism
Research begun: Monarchy (1 Turns)
Delhi begins: Spearman (1 turns)
A Farm was built near Agra
A Farm was built near Tokyo
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Old May 01, 2012, 10:20 AM   #999
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NUTS!

What have we got in defense? Can we get Feudalism somehow?

Are AP resolutions every 5 or 10? If 5 we may have a chance if Hatty doesn't veto!
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Old May 01, 2012, 12:29 PM   #1000
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I think we have no choice but to attack with cats and injure the big stack.

Next vote is in 7 turns.

Sell off Liberalism to try and get some volunteer converts to free religion.

Hammy has a big stack to our north also.

Are you finished C63?
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