Screaming Orange Pumpkins - RR16B - It's tax day again ...

[vanatteveldt]

[OT: I lied, one more comment about the name :-). Bohemian comes from French Bohemien, which (according to our good friend Wikipedia) was the name given to gypsies by the French because they (the gypsies) said that they came from Bohemia, which I think was a kingdom back then. I am aware that the Czech Republic is larger than Bohemia, one of my good friends is Moravian so she is quite sensitive about the issue :-). I just figured that it would be a bit like Holland / The Netherlands, where the former is also just a former county in the latter, but internationally seen as synonymous... Anyway... Screaming orange pumpkins it is, then?]

No research building by the way

Yeah just read that in the RR15 thread. I think that bulbing + trading should do fine until early modern times. We will have enough money to go around so expansion should be no problem. After early modern it will become tough to tech without building research as there won't be a lot of advanced AI's to trade with and the techs will become prohibititevly expensive. So... we should probably try to finish the game soon after bulbing becomes unattractive, e.g. with Cuirassiers as end game unit at the latest. Since victory is earliest date that seems like a good idea anyway, but it does depend on settings (continents will be difficult to finish off before astronomy...)

O, and happy queen's day!

[Killroyan]

Good luck guys. This will be an interesting game.

[r_rolo1]

Ok, I started a common thread for both teams in here .It is basically to store all the common talk ( will probably move all the RR16 talk in RR15 thread to there when I get time ), the ruleset , and to discuss whatever issues the game needs in a non-spoilerish way

BTW when you have a team name ( if you still are going to do so ) post it there

[vranasm]

hmm feels like huge step back in the rules now... basically meaning we can use everything... be it espionage for stealing, diplomacy, bulbing even teching through scientists once we aquire caste or writing.

to me feels like biggest question now is how to get writing.

[pigswill]

No new techs until an AI gets alphabet. We badly need copper and get ready to hammer our neighbours.

[LKendter]

- 100% cash after getting these techs: Fishing, Agri, Wheel, Hunting, Mining, Myst, AH, BW, Masonry, Pottery
- No Rep civic before Constitution
- No research build


Roster:
lymond (up)
LKendter (on deck)
timmy827
vranasm
pigswill
vanatteveldt


Time to start discussing the game...

[lymond]

Since I'm up, I will throw up some thoughts now and a quasi-plan:

First, let's confirm a team name. I believe we have a few votes for "Screaming Orange Pumpkins"

1) I think first thing is to move the warrior first and then discuss. At first I was opposed to settling for the Gold, but I'm willing to consider it based on the warrior move. There's really only one place to move him of any consequence and that is 1SW. If a resource is revealed - unlikely - next to the gold we may want to discuss using 2 moves to settle 1S of the plains hill. Furthermore, if we commit to that move, the warrior will have a chance to move further SW to reveal the area around the riverside plains hill which would require the same number of settler moves. Only worth it obviously if good food is revealed. This would open up a second city back on the phants.

2) Again, all that is a longshot. The gold is going to be good for us one way or another. However, I'm still very much primarily sold on settling on the phants.

3) Tech pat of Mining>BW initially seems a no-brainer. Gilgs has fine starting techs. Mining>BW will significantly increase production potential and open up the UU if copper is revealed, which we want to see regardless.

4) Tech path from there is probably not worth discussing much. I doubt I play past BW anyway. POT is a good option, but we might want Fish first for the bonus. Masonry will probably be key as well.

5) Worker turn - move to improve corn first, then either mine PH or move to riverside grasshill to chop/mine depending on BW.

6) Further exploring - After the initial move SW, I suggest the warrior scout first towards the gold to reveal all surrounding tiles and a bit south, then move West and back north to reveal the surrounding area. Roughly a 10 tile radius.

I think the first TS should be 20 turns, then we can settle on maybe 10 to 15 turns as the norm. This should allow BW to finish and the first improvement. Although probably not necessary in the first couple of TS, since this game is a bit more competitive than usual, we might adopt a practice that I use on my SGOTM team uses in which we break up TS for reports/evaluations. This allows the team more interaction during a TS and ensures we make fewer mistakes and adjust to unexpected surprises.

Again, my first move would be just a Turn 0 warrior move 1SW and then post screenshot/save for discussion before proceeding with full TS.


Additional thought: I doubt anywhere we settle in the vicinity will be a long-term Bureau cap. Looks fine for early production. A solid Bureau commerce cap will be important for this type of game methinks, so it should be something to consider as we explore.

[timmy827]

All the plans for this set sound good (will check back in after the warrior move). Most importantly, on board with the nickname. (Not SIP, mind you).

And on the longer term -
Not sure that the Bureau cap is as important here. In a normal game the value is not just the 50% Bureau bonus itself, but that it multiplies with "special" research multipliers you don't get in every city (Academy, monasteries, Oxford). Gold doesn't have the same extras except for Wall Street which comes later than all the above.

If we expect to do a lot of bulb and trade finding a dynamite GP farm could be higher priority. Obviously we'll have to evaluate trading once we find out who the neighbors are.

[lymond]

Timmy - In this case, our Bureau cap will be a gold city. Bureau boosts commerce which in turn boosts gold at 0% tax. Market/Grocer/Bank will be our Oxford...so to speak. This will be invaluable. Any way to maximize our gold output will be key here, and Bureau will boost it considerably even without Wall Street, which I expect we will never come close to reaching. I agree though that a GP farm will be very important to, if not least to produce GMs.

[vranasm]

have to agree with basically everything L said... we should move the warrior and post screenshot

The crucial part is achieving Writing since then we can start teching through scientists.
We're creative and libraries are cheap.

We are NOT forbidden to try teching ourselfs as I understand the rules now.

We should discuss Great Wall for Great Spy as first great person. Gilgamesh is THE primary EE leader, complication being how to get to PH.

If we shot for Great Wall masonry will probably be tech #3 right after BW since TGW times are always very tight.

I would be even the mind not losing 2 turns for the gold if the intent is to build Great Wall, since timing means everything and 2H center tile is more important.

[vanatteveldt]

Warrior 1SW seems like no brainer. There is coast next to the gold, so SE will reveal seafood at best.

Let's move it and post another screenie?

---

We are allowed to self tech, but that will be tough before writing, with no slides, spies, or scientists. We should not pop any huts that we can keep for ourselves until after the basic techs and if we can block any huts it might be worth it to pop it with a scout or worker after the initial phase.

Great wall makes sense for a lot of reasons: we will be expanding like mad, the great spy will provide some science points, and it is probably the only useful wonder that we are allowed to tech (with pyramids Rep being out and creative making the 'henge useless). However, it will be tough to get as we are not industrious and start without myst or mining, so timing and a bit of luck will be essential.

Do we have any plans after the initial teching burst? Save on gold and hope that someone will tech alphabet soon?

[vranasm]

Originally Posted by vanatteveldt

Do we have any plans after the initial teching burst? Save on gold and hope that someone will tech alphabet soon?

well I don't think any other plans can be made... the only decision is about TGW and rexing in a good way and crossing fingers.

I think one thing that can make all the difference between 2 teams is when first AI gets Alpha. This is pretty random usually.

[lymond]

We might want to pickup Myst before Masonry. Yeah, technically we don't need it, but it is something we can actually tech so might as well take the bonus on Masonry. We're heading straight to BW, so we can chop the GW.

Kinda wishful thinking on hoarding huts. I rarely play with them, but if I do it's usually a rush for them. Only way is if our city blocks off a portion of land to the AIs. I really wish huts and events were off though.

I'll go ahead and move the warrior since there is really only one option and post a screenie now. I'll be away most of the day.

[lymond]

Here's the shot and save:

Spoiler:

As expected, not much to look at. I'm all for SoE now. We can possible place a city to share corn and work gold later.

General note: We want to settle good cities, ofc, but I think we should try to keep things as compact as possible to keep maintenance low as we expand. Anything to maximize the amount of gpt we produce.

[vranasm]

yeah settle on phants... the land looks a bit shallow

[pigswill]

If we're going for Gwall its worth considering masonry>BW, start Gwall asap and add some chops after BW.

[LKendter]

Settle on elephants

[lymond]

I'll play a bit later this evening. Looks like SoE is favored.

I'd prefer BW first to get those hills up. Also want to get that first settler asap before GW. Honestly, on this level we should have a good shot at GW. Sometimes the AI gets lucky on GW but there's not much you can do about it.

Mids might be good for Police State at times.

Oh...when worker arrives he will put 1t into road on the way to corn.

[lymond]

Man, I hate huts. No point in them. Only hut I ever saw was the first one we popped with the Cap. Soon run into AIs with there Scouts running around gobbling up all the huts I never saw.

Anyway, Settled on Phants and fired up a worker. Good news is another corn presented itself for the cap, which allows us to food share with a second city. Bad news is that the surrounding land is a bit sketchy for food, but at least we see another gold.

So, we met this friendly chap after a couple of turns - from the south:

Spoiler:

He can always make the early game interesting

Then this joker appears to the west of our borders:

Spoiler:

Here's a view of the land to the North around cap:

Spoiler:

and to the south:

Spoiler:

I've put our first warrior on spawnbust duty and the second is moving west to scout that area. I put a settler as placeholder, although I'd like to get him out asap...we can chop him soon.

I'm inclined to settle where a marked a dotmap to allow foodshare and gold. This allows us to proceed to settle Phants/Pigs/Gems further southwest for what appears to be a full land block. Appears to be at least 2 cities to north that may be worth settling as well.

No clear cottage cities viewable -except way south. However, there may be some flood plain action due west. I'm more concerned with food/production with the first couple of cities anyway as I figure we will need an early war.

At least we have 2 AIs which means one at least should go for Alpha at some point, although I find Willie and Rag don't often beeline it. However, anything can happen and the fact that these jokers likely luck hutted may speed up Alpha.

Oh...and, of course, showing Bronze may affect our settling pattern, but I really hope to get that gold up to the west asap. I'm hoping Bronze pops in our cap.

Edit: I'm adding an interesting screenshot that shows the Dutch Border to the west not far from that stone

Spoiler:

Rag's culture is still out of view, but I expect he's just south of these dyes somewhere. Dutch could be a good early target, but we may want to neuter Rag asap.

[LKendter]

- 100% cash after getting these techs: Fishing, Agri, Wheel, Hunting, Mining, Myst, AH, BW, Masonry, Pottery
- No Rep civic before Constitution
- No research build

Roster:
lymond
LKendter (up)
timmy827 (on deck)
vranasm
pigswill
vanatteveldt