Leaderscreens - Observations

[Gucumatz]

Originally Posted by Snoopaloop

Because archeological efforts have proved how everything ever occured in Mayan history, right. No room for maybe's and what if's in that field of study

I personally don't see a difference in people believing the Mayans were taught advanced technologies by an alien race, and people believing an all knowing god resides in some dimension and judges our actions in preparation for an afterlife. Neither can be proved definitively, and should not be called nonsense by either side.

When I learn to mod, some ufo's blasting around in Pacal's backround might be my first edit. Maybe I'll throw Bigfoot behind Haiwatha as well.

Because my ancestors must have been too stupid to build anything like we did, it must have been aliens . All the Ancient Aliens theory does is act as a subtle form of racism and for some a replacement of the "noble savage theory" (a terrible theory which I am glad is dying out).

Because instead of bothering to learn culture, traditions, or you know history Pacal's sarcophagus had to be a rocket ship. What evidence is there? None. Why suggest we were "given" technology? There is archeological evidence of slow and gradual devlopment over millenia, and its not like my ancestors "got the technology" all of a sudden. Corn, early structures, heck even using dates given by the Popol Vuh, Kaqchikel Annals, and accounts of Spanish Priests recording down info shows there was/is a structured belief that people in Mesoamerica evolved slowly over time.

Oh and Pacal's Sarcophagus's image is clearly a Ceiba... The Ceiba is a magnificently important tree in Maya tradition, culture, and religion. It is in a sense our tree of life. If you ever see one in real life, you will understand why they are so sacred. After the fall of some of the Maya cities peasants planted Ceibas in some of the abandoned cities before they left, it is a symbol of our culture. But no, it haaaas to be a rocketship ....

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People may not realize it, but the whole Ancient Alien's ""theory"" smells of racism and Euro-Centrism. There is no possible way these "natives" ever could have developed the math, society, engineers, and resources to ever become that advanced.

So of course it has to be aliens?

[Ahhuatl]

Ehecatzin -

I'll be the first to admit that I didn't do well in my codex interpretation class but I will point out that the Huey Tlatoani performed more functions than just ruling. As both a warrior and a spiritual leader in a culture that believed an individual could assume different spiritual identities by donning particular vestments, I don't think its smart to take a particular codex depiction as being the day to day look of a figure when it could easily be construed as a specific reference to the ruler aspect of his position.

This isn't to brush off what you accurately state about the controversy surrounding the headdress in Austria or to even argue that Moctezuma actually wore it. But it is to point out that there are numerous codices that show warriors and priests in elaborate headdresses, roles which Moctezuma played at one point or another. He may have worn something quite similar to the Austria Headdress as some point in time and considering the aforementioned, the iconic status the Austria headdress holds in contemporary thought, and the fact that the Austria headdress is one of the few (only?) surviving examples of actual Aztec headdresses, I think its a forgivable fudging on Firaxis' part to have Moctezuma wear it.

Gucumatz -

People may not realize it, but the whole Ancient Alien's ""theory"" smells of racism and Euro-Centrism. There is no possible way these "natives" ever could have developed the math, society, engineers, and resources to ever become that advanced.

So of course it has to be aliens?

[Eagle Pursuit]

Originally Posted by Gucumatz

People may not realize it, but the whole Ancient Alien's ""theory"" smells of racism and Euro-Centrism. There is no possible way these "natives" ever could have developed the math, society, engineers, and resources to ever become that advanced.

So of course it has to be aliens?

Quite True.

I hate that Ancient Aliens show

[AriochIV]

Originally Posted by Gucumatz

Because my ancestors must have been too stupid to build anything like we did, it must have been aliens. All the Ancient Aliens theory does is act as a subtle form of racism and for some a replacement of the "noble savage theory" (a terrible theory which I am glad is dying out).

Well, I agree with your general point, but I wouldn't call it racism, because they do the same thing with all ancient cultures, from Egypt (pyramid myths) to neolithic Europe (Stonehenge myths). People for some reason don't want to believe that ancient humans were every bit as smart as humans are today. They don't see the difference between technology and individual intelligence.

[CoolLizy]

Originally Posted by AriochIV

Well, I agree with your general point, but I wouldn't call it racism, because they do the same thing with all ancient cultures, from Egypt (pyramid myths) to neolithic Europe (Stonehenge myths).

That don't just do it with ancient cultures, either. Many people insist that humanity was not yet advanced enough to have discovered things like radio waves, atomic theory, or space travel as early as we did.

[Ahhuatl]

Well, I agree with your general point, but I wouldn't call it racism, because they do the same thing with all ancient cultures, from Egypt (pyramid myths) to neolithic Europe (Stonehenge myths).

I don't think you've caught the nuances of it. The pyramids were built by Africans while the Stonehedge predate/were constructed outside of Western Civilization. While in the popular consciousness racism is a form of phenotypical classification, historically and practically it is a means of asserting cultural superiority but justifying it as being innate genetic. The Pyramids and Stonehenge weren't constructed by White people (Westerners) and therefore "must" have been built by aliens.

Furthermore, I will point out that many of the Native American wonders that some insist were built by aliens were actually constructed after ones built by White people. If this was merely a case of people being unwilling to accept the idea that older civilizations were capable of engineering marvels, the wonders built by Western civilization would also have all sorts of alien theories surrounding them too. When was the last time you heard someone claim the Colosseum was built by aliens? Saw a documentary that claimed the Parthenon was built by aliens? Those ideas aren't popular in the imagination, even though both structures are older than many of the structures in Native America, precisely because they were made by whites.

[ehecatzin]

Originally Posted by Ahhuatl

Ehecatzin -

I'll be the first to admit that I didn't do well in my codex interpretation class but I will point out that the Huey Tlatoani performed more functions than just ruling. As both a warrior and a spiritual leader in a culture that believed an individual could assume different spiritual identities by donning particular vestments, I don't think its smart to take a particular codex depiction as being the day to day look of a figure when it could easily be construed as a specific reference to the ruler aspect of his position.

This isn't to brush off what you accurately state about the controversy surrounding the headdress in Austria or to even argue that Moctezuma actually wore it. But it is to point out that there are numerous codices that show warriors and priests in elaborate headdresses, roles which Moctezuma played at one point or another. He may have worn something quite similar to the Austria Headdress as some point in time and considering the aforementioned, the iconic status the Austria headdress holds in contemporary thought, and the fact that the Austria headdress is one of the few (only?) surviving examples of actual Aztec headdresses, I think its a forgivable fudging on Firaxis' part to have Moctezuma wear it.

You do have valid point, and I know Aztec emperors took on very diferent roles, I guess I just really want to see Moctezuma in full imperial regalia for a change. And considering that he is supposed to be in a temple...then yes I guess you are right, he could as well just be in a ceremony and have that headress, tho I mantain that he looks too much like a modern dancer reenactor.

Finally, Im with Gugumatz, aliens in America theories do have a stink of racism, they deliveratly choose to ignore all evidence of native development, it must have been aliens.

[Gucumatz]

Originally Posted by CoolLizy

That don't just do it with ancient cultures, either. Many people insist that humanity was not yet advanced enough to have discovered things like radio waves, atomic theory, or space travel as early as we did.

And this is something I don't understand why people do either. I agree with you, it makes me cringe too.

People don't seem to like to accept the wonders of the human mind. For some reason they can't grasp these advances and it really makes no sense. But the two groups of people who both can't believe these advances just make me wonder. How you can not believe something that can happen in front of your eyes, which you can research, and which you can take a part of, makes no sense to me either.

===

But the Ancient Aliens theory is different like Ahhuatl points out. It specifically targets certain civilizations and peoples.

[CoolLizy]

Originally Posted by Ahhuatl

I don't think you've caught the nuances of it. The pyramids were built by Africans while the Stonehedge predate/were constructed outside of Western Civilization.

For better or for worse, ancient Egypt tends to be thought of a "Western" as opposed to African; and what culture to assign Stongehenge to really differs from individual to individual.

I'd also like present Exhibit B, if you will: Mycenae, a Greek city-state. Can't get much more western civilization than Greece. And for some unfathomable reason there are people who insist that the Greeks did not possess the technology to move the large stones that populate the city's construction and point to legends that it was built by cyclopes as "proof" that it must have been built by aliens. Hooray?

[JFD]

You can't condemn people too much for denying the accomplishments of cultures outside their own. Who'd honestly want someone else to have something better before they did? Disregarding fact is a little far though, as well as coming up with outlandish reasonings. Case in point: who settled first in New Zealand.

On Maria Theresa: should she be wearing white? She was a particularly devout Catholic. I could be mistaken though, and it may only be that she should be wearing black if she was before the Pope. Anyone able to enlighten me?

[AriochIV]

Originally Posted by JFD

On Maria Theresa: should she be wearing white? She was a particularly devout Catholic. I could be mistaken though, and it may only be that she should be wearing black if she was before the Pope. Anyone able to enlighten me?

If you google images for Maria Theresa and look at the various paintings of her, in none of them is she wearing black.

[Camikaze]

Moderator Action: Thanks to those that have stuck to the topic of the thread, but could everyone else please make an effort to do so as well? It's about observations from the leaderscreens, not about ancient alien theories.

[Art Grin]

Originally Posted by JFD

You can't condemn people too much for denying the accomplishments of cultures outside their own. Who'd honestly want someone else to have something better before they did? Disregarding fact is a little far though, as well as coming up with outlandish reasonings. Case in point: who settled first in New Zealand.

On Maria Theresa: should she be wearing white? She was a particularly devout Catholic. I could be mistaken though, and it may only be that she should be wearing black if she was before the Pope. Anyone able to enlighten me?

White was actually a very common colour for dresses back in the 18th century and according to most painting of her she wore white or some shade of blue. There's really only a few painting of her wearing black and those are largely from the end of her reign. So the dress they picked suits her pretty well.

[CoolLizy]

Originally Posted by JFD

On Maria Theresa: should she be wearing white? She was a particularly devout Catholic. I could be mistaken though, and it may only be that she should be wearing black if she was before the Pope. Anyone able to enlighten me?

She's basically wearing the dress from this painting, just without the shawl.

[JFD]

Originally Posted by Art Grin

White was actually a very common colour for dresses back in the 18th century and according to most painting of her she wore white or some shade of blue. There's really only a few painting of her wearing black and those are largely from the end of her reign. So the dress they picked suits her pretty well.

Okay. Thank you. It was just something a friend commented on, and I had a suspicion that he was wrong. My internet won't handle heavy images, so I couldn't rightly check.

[Cicero63]

For a large amount of her later life Maria Theresa did only wear black in mourning for her deceased husband

[Gucumatz]

That indeed does look like her dress. What about the hall she is in? Anyone know which particular hall/setting she was at?

[Guandao]

I found the inspirations for Nebuchadnezzar and Harun al Rashid's costumes.

[Guandao]

Also found the inspiration for Genghis' armor.

Theodora's appearance in the game seems to be based on that Benjamin Constant painting of her at the Hippodrome. Not too accurate, but I guess it works.

[The_J]

Nice finds .