White Hand Question

[fdrpi]

Does spreading this religion lower the AC?

I don't think this should be the case in my opinion.

Is it fore lore reasons? Gameplay? A mix maybe?

[A Moon]

Oddly enough, it does. There's no real explanation for that.There's no real lore-friendly explanation for that.

[arcticnightwolf]

Originally Posted by A Moon

[..] There's no real explanation for that.

Actually, there would be excellent explanation for that - it was coded that way, that's why.

[Valkrionn]

Originally Posted by A Moon

Oddly enough, it does. There's no real explanation for that.There's no real lore-friendly explanation for that.

Looks like you're wrong again.

True, there's no Kael-written lore for it; But there is something by KillerClowns that is what I based it on. Check this post, specifically the story Paradise.

[A Moon]

Originally Posted by Valkrionn

Looks like you're wrong again.

True, there's no Kael-written lore for it; But there is something by KillerClowns that is what I based it on. Check this post, specifically the story Paradise.

Keeping hell terrain out of your lands when your civ worships that religion? Yes. Keeping it out of Erebus entirely when you spread it to some of your neighbours' cities? Hm...

[Valkrionn]

Originally Posted by A Moon

Keeping hell terrain out of your lands when your civ worships that religion? Yes. Keeping it out of Erebus entirely when you spread it to some of your neighbours? Hm...

As said in chat, the point behind the religion is an evil religion that opposes AC. Most evil civs contribute to the AC simply by existing (razed cities, for instance), so a way to offset that increase isn't out of line.

[fdrpi]

It's just strange to me that the White Hand reduces the AC, but the good religions don't.

And I thought only the Veil increases the AC. The OO and CoE do as well?

By the way, I'd like to also point out that those two stories are very good. So props to their writer!

[Valkrionn]

To be honest, I had forgotten it even decreased the counter. That feature may inexplicably vanish in a patch.

[fdrpi]

If the White Hand will be fixed in a patch, might I suggest you also make its followers evil and not neutral? Taranis adopted it and became neutral in my game.

Also, I think Taranis should also be given the Ice Touched trait, and automatically spread the White Hand to his cities like Hyborem with the Ashen Veil.

And perhaps you could balance the AC decreasing by spreading the White Hand by having the Illian/Frozed rituals plus building Fiacra increase it. A small amount for Fiacra, but larger amounts for the rituals, increasingly so as one approaches the Draw and finally, Ascension.

[Lplate]

Hi,
I'm not sure how the current mechanic works for the White Hand reducing the AC.
A possibility would be to have a chance for any action to raise or lower the AC to have no effect tied to the global % of White Hand followers. This would fit with their static philosophy, so rather than actively reducing the AC, they would stabilise it instead.

[Valkrionn]

Originally Posted by fdrpi

If the White Hand will be fixed in a patch, might I suggest you also make its followers evil and not neutral? Taranis adopted it and became neutral in my game.

Also, I think Taranis should also be given the Ice Touched trait, and automatically spread the White Hand to his cities like Hyborem with the Ashen Veil.

And perhaps you could balance the AC decreasing by spreading the White Hand by having the Illian/Frozed rituals plus building Fiacra increase it. A small amount for Fiacra, but larger amounts for the rituals, increasingly so as one approaches the Draw and finally, Ascension.

If it's making players neutral it is a bug. I'll have to fix that.

As for anything to do with Taranis or new features, that would be out of the scope here. It's just a bug fix patch; Removing a line of xml is fine, but adding more to the religion won't happen. Taranis is non-supported, as is the entirety of the Frozen civilization; It's an inactive module for a reason.

Originally Posted by Lplate

Hi,
I'm not sure how the current mechanic works for the White Hand reducing the AC.
A possibility would be to have a chance for any action to raise or lower the AC to have no effect tied to the global % of White Hand followers. This would fit with their static philosophy, so rather than actively reducing the AC, they would stabilise it instead.

Like I said above, out of scope for the fix.

[fdrpi]

It just doesn't make sense, lore or gameplay wise, for Taranis to be any religion other than the White Hand. That's all.

But I'm sure you understand that.

[Valkrionn]

I do, I'm just not touching that civ.

It's not supported and likely buggy at this point.

[fdrpi]

So the Frozen civilization is not changing.

In a strange way, Taranis is pleased.

[fdrpi]

Also, Basium adopted FoL and became neutral, but when adopting Order did not become good.

And that 3 header Balseraph leader adopted OO and became neutral.

Not playing with Broader Alignments by the way.

[Valkrionn]

Order is not good. It is lawful. And OO is chaotic neutral.

[fdrpi]

Is there an easy list to that stuff? It isn't clear in game for the mod.

[ZeroZeroSix]

That is an interesting debate there, as an old player of d&d I have to share that graph I saw in a d&d book (Maybe you already know that but I like to post about it);

lawful lawful lawful
good neutral evil

neutral true neutral
good neutral evil

chaotic chaotic chaotic
good neutral evil

Usualy good and evil should be opposite force as law is also oppose to chaos. What is less clear is a lawfull good character will ally with a chaotic good to oppose a common ennemy ? Well, that depend on the past.

As for Tanaris and the frozen they are frost based and are the infernal fire based? if that is the case they are naturaly opposed on another plane than alingment. As for the white hand lowering the ac I think it should not be. I played a game with white hand as religion and the counter never goes above 20. About the graph I made....there is another about element;

ice water mud

air earth

smoke fire magma

As for this, creature and civ mainly based on those element sould be oppose to their contrary disregarding the allingment they have.

Ok, that was just an insight from the d&d past, Just disregard it because this mod is great and I still discover things while playing it. Fall from heaven was a master piece and rise from erebus put so much indeep in it that it eclisp the civ4 entirely.