Advertisement
Civilization Fanatics' Center

Go Back   Civilization Fanatics' Forums > CIVILIZATION V > Civ5 - General Discussions

Notices

Civ5 - General Discussions Forum for general Civ5 discussions.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 12, 2012, 04:13 AM   #1
Montov
King
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 693
The Netherlands (pre-release thread)

This is what we know of the Dutch:

UA: East India Company - Retain 50% of happiness from luxuries traded to other civilizations.
UI: Polder - Build on marshes, gives unique luxury (Tulips) <not confirmed>
UU: Sea Beggars - Ship replaces Privateer, can pillage coastal cities.

I'm worried the Dutch unique items are too situational now we know more about it.

UA: When would you want to trade away your last resource when it costs 2 happiness? In the beginning you want to fill the happiness bucket to get a golden age, or you need or to expand, or you need it to conquer other cities. And with the Piety bonus converting happiness to Culture and Rationalism has the Science bonus when happy, I don't see a lot of opportunities to make it work.

The only situations I can see it shine is during a golden age, when happiness is less important, or when you need money more than happiness (not very likely) or in case a Allied civ demands a resource you have temporarily (during razing a city).

UI: Polder likely requires marsh, and if it does, you need to be lucky with a couple of marshes nearby, and you need to leave it unimproved until the 18th century when the Polder is likely to be constructed. Only then can it be great.

UU: A ship is always tricky. They need good water maps to work. And although the navy game in G+K looks promising, I feel it doesn't add that much in comparison with a Privateer.

What are your thoughts about it?
Montov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 04:21 AM   #2
ampmclock
Warlord
 
ampmclock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 137
yeah, honestly, I was really excited to play as the dutch, as I thought the UA was much better. I was under the impression trading luxuries as the dutch lets you keep ALL the happiness you would have traded away. Kinda lame it's only 50, but oh well. Also, yeah, I've been thinking, I RARELY see marshes in game, so there's that. And the sea beggar is cool, it's nice that it can pillage.
ampmclock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 04:44 AM   #3
Ajuga
Prince
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 303
The UA really needs to be that you always keep happiness of a certain luxury even if you have traded all of those luxuries away.
It means you usually can get 750-1500 more gold on average out of trade in comparison to any other civ.
Right now it's as you say, completely useless. The AI already gets a lot more happiness than the player, why would anyone sacrifice what little happiness you have? I usually have none to spare to begin with.
Ajuga is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 04:57 AM   #4
elprofesor
Pluri-editing poster
 
elprofesor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: (hint: I can type "")
Posts: 766
Selling your luxury resources at the beginning of the game is a given. What you gain from those 240 gold per lux far outweights the loss of happiness. This ensures that you get 2-4 extra happiness early game.
It's not crazy powerful, but it is useful.

On the other hand, if you get that extra happiness even if you have more than one of the traded resource, it is quite a good UA (i.e., +2 happiness when trading a luxury resource, regardless of everything else).
__________________
"There are 10 types of people in this world:
Those that know ternary,
Those that don't, and those that expected a binary joke"

Last edited by elprofesor; May 12, 2012 at 06:45 AM.
elprofesor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 04:57 AM   #5
GoodSarmatian
Colonist
 
GoodSarmatian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Germany, The Horned City
Posts: 6,058
I ferquently trade my last (or rather first) luxury very early in the game. It almost gives you enough gold to buy another worker, an two luxuries sell for moe than it takes to buy a settler.
Later in the game you can can trade your last luxury for anopther civs luxury. Normally oyu wouldn't gain anything but with EAC your net gain is +2 (or 3 with the right policy).
It's not a top tier ability, but If you trade a lot it's far from useless and if you play the Dutch and don't trade a lot you're doing it wrong.
I reserve judgement on the Polder. The only thing we know is that it's built on marshes. If it doesn't have a tech requirement and the Dutch have a start bias near marshes it oculd be very powerful.
__________________
How much joy does this new planet hold, when all I can think of is everything I've left behind ?
GoodSarmatian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 05:13 AM   #6
glaivemaster
Prince
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Lancaster, United Kingdom
Posts: 360
As people have said, this ability is useful for selling Luxuries (at any point in the game really, but early on especially). It just means that you can stretch what you have that little bit further, which is especially important if you don't start next to many luxuries, as can happen.

As well, this can gain you happiness. Imagine trading your last luxury for an AI luxury. Normally, pointless, but in this case you still gain +2 happiness. That can be very important, occasionally (usually in the middle of a war)
glaivemaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 05:17 AM   #7
mitsho
Deity
 
mitsho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Europe, more or less
Posts: 6,282
I still think it's way too similar to the Arabian UA, respectively the Bazaar.
mitsho is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 05:21 AM   #8
theadder
Prince
 
theadder's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Addoria
Posts: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montov View Post
I'm worried the Dutch unique items are too situational now we know more about it.

UA: When would you want to trade away your last resource when it costs 2 happiness? In the beginning you want to fill the happiness bucket to get a golden age, or you need or to expand, or you need it to conquer other cities.
I agree that it isn't as good as I was hoping, but:

You trade away your final Luxury A in order to gain Luxury B at the initial part of the game. In gaining Luxury B, which provides 4 happiness, you only lose 2 happiness to do so.

There is a net gain there, albeit a small one. The idea seems to be that you can always exchange your final luxuries [all of them] for others that the AI has. The one thing that redeems this a bit is that they seem to be adding quite a few new ones [citrus {?}, salt, etc] and so perhaps it will be less viable to get hold of all of them and that might make something like this more useful.

I don't do the thing with selling final luxuries for gold, so I think that is why it seems more useful to me. Still, I think that it ought to be more powerful. It seems to me that it was probably more powerful earlier and they have attempted to re-balance it. Perhaps it will still change.
theadder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 06:01 AM   #9
Heinage
Khan
 
Heinage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Auckland, NZ
Posts: 442
Is there a chance that it works like this?
Say you have 2 sources of Spices.
This would normally give you 4 happiness because the extra one doesn't add extra happiness.
If the Dutch trade 1 source of Spices to another Civ, they "retain" 2 happiness of what they trade away.
So they get 6 happiness (4 from their own Spices, and 2 extra from "traded Spices").
This would encourage them to trade for more gold and happiness and give them something the bazaar doesn't give the Arabians...

Just putting it out there...I'm by no means sure of this, but would like to hear what others think of this...
Heinage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 06:05 AM   #10
ampmclock
Warlord
 
ampmclock's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 137
Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsho View Post
I still think it's way too similar to the Arabian UA, respectively the Bazaar.
Whaaaa
ampmclock is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 06:27 AM   #11
Montov
King
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinage View Post
Is there a chance that it works like this?
Say you have 2 sources of Spices.
This would normally give you 4 happiness because the extra one doesn't add extra happiness.
If the Dutch trade 1 source of Spices to another Civ, they "retain" 2 happiness of what they trade away.
So they get 6 happiness (4 from their own Spices, and 2 extra from "traded Spices").
This would encourage them to trade for more gold and happiness and give them something the bazaar doesn't give the Arabians...

Just putting it out there...I'm by no means sure of this, but would like to hear what others think of this...
That's quite different than the text implies. I don't think that will work either, because with trade you get both the benefit of the trade and even extra happiness. That doesn't look balanced.

My suggestion would be to keep 100% of the happiness when trading the last resource with a friendly civ and open borders, 50% when neutral, and 0% with civs with hostile attitudes. That would give incentive to work on good diplomatic relations.
Montov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 07:00 AM   #12
apocalypse105
Deity
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,461
Why are you worried you just have to play like the dutch where in real life

A small nation who become powerfull because of trade If you trade all you're luxuries away you still have enough happiness to grow 3 cities
apocalypse105 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 07:33 AM   #13
Camikaze
Deity
 
Camikaze's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Sydney
Posts: 24,198
Yeah, I reckon allowing you to keep all your happiness from a luxury sale would be way too powerful. If you have three luxuries near your capital, that's 720 gold from trades before you hit turn 50. There needs to be some sort of trade off for that. 2 happiness means that there is some limitation on the extent to which you can trade (cutting it back to maybe 480), and you don't get a golden age as quickly. It still seems powerful, though.

I imagine the Polder will be assisted by a start bias.
__________________
CivFanatics on Facebook >>> /civfanatics
CivFanatics on Twitter >>> @civfanatics
Camikaze is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 07:33 AM   #14
Arkangelus
Prince
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Scotland
Posts: 304
I'm going to love starting next to the Dutch. Steal their tulips with war and artists!
Arkangelus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 07:50 AM   #15
Eagle Pursuit
Scir-Gerefa
 
Eagle Pursuit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 4,445
Quote:
Originally Posted by Montov View Post

UI: Polder likely requires marsh, and if it does, you need to be lucky with a couple of marshes nearby, and you need to leave it unimproved until the 18th century when the Polder is likely to be constructed. Only then can it be great.
I don't think it's that likely that the Polder will be a Late Renaissance improvement. I suspect it will fall more around the Medieval Era.
Eagle Pursuit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 08:25 AM   #16
Montov
King
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 693
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eagle Pursuit View Post
I don't think it's that likely that the Polder will be a Late Renaissance improvement. I suspect it will fall more around the Medieval Era.
The 'poldering' of the Medievel Era is not the polders full of tulip fields we know today. But I hope the improvement is available midgame for gameplay reasons.

Looking at the techs, I think it will be between Machinery and Economics. Economics (currently) has the Windmill, which was vital for making Polders. Machinery could also work logically, and currently Printing Press is between them, so it could be a good compromise (Polder model ) although it doesn't fit the tech itself. With the rearranging of the techs its hard to say, but early Renaissance could work.
Montov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 07:14 PM   #17
Heinage
Khan
 
Heinage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Auckland, NZ
Posts: 442
Basically, this UA is worse than the UB of Arabia...

...and that disappoints me a lot...
unless it works differently to what we are assuming, or unless the UB of Arabia as been changed/nerfed.
Heinage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 07:27 PM   #18
apocalypse105
Deity
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinage View Post
Basically, this UA is worse than the UB of Arabia...

...and that disappoints me a lot...
unless it works differently to what we are assuming, or unless the UB of Arabia as been changed/nerfed.
No it doesn't if you have a small empire this bonus is amazing
apocalypse105 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 07:36 PM   #19
Heinage
Khan
 
Heinage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Auckland, NZ
Posts: 442
Quote:
Originally Posted by apocalypse105 View Post
No it doesn't if you have a small empire this bonus is amazing
But the bazaar does more.
With the Netherlands, you would trade away your last lux and retain 2 happiness.
With the Arabians, you would trade away your last lux and retain 4 happiness (if you have a bazaar).

And that "if" I just mentioned is not a "major IF", because you should be building markets/bazaars in all your cities (there's no downside).

The only up-side I can see is the following:
With the Dutch you can go and settle cities next to a single lux source you don't have and instantly trade it away while retaining 2 happiness.
However I don't see that as much of an up-side, due to the fact that it's costing you more than 2 happiness (I think) to actually settle that city in the first place.
With the Arabs, you could go and settle that exact same city, buy a bazaar (which in itself produces gold for you for free), and then trade away that lux while retaining 4 happiness.

Which one do you think is better?
Heinage is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 12, 2012, 08:19 PM   #20
apocalypse105
Deity
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 2,461
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heinage View Post
But the bazaar does more.
With the Netherlands, you would trade away your last lux and retain 2 happiness.
With the Arabians, you would trade away your last lux and retain 4 happiness (if you have a bazaar).

And that "if" I just mentioned is not a "major IF", because you should be building markets/bazaars in all your cities (there's no downside).

The only up-side I can see is the following:
With the Dutch you can go and settle cities next to a single lux source you don't have and instantly trade it away while retaining 2 happiness.
However I don't see that as much of an up-side, due to the fact that it's costing you more than 2 happiness (I think) to actually settle that city in the first place.
With the Arabs, you could go and settle that exact same city, buy a bazaar (which in itself produces gold for you for free), and then trade away that lux while retaining 4 happiness.

Which one do you think is better?
True bazar is better

but the dutch get a unique luxury tulps

and I don't know how good the privateer is So i can't say if arabia will be better in general
apocalypse105 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Go Back Civilization Fanatics' Forums > CIVILIZATION V > Civ5 - General Discussions > The Netherlands (pre-release thread)

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



Advertisement

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
This site is copyright Civilization Fanatics' Center.
Support CFC: Amazon.com | Amazon UK | Amazon DE | Amazon CA | Amazon FR