No fix for submarines ? Naval units critics

[nokmirt]

I have to watch The Russians are Coming. I never saw it, but found a copy of it today.

To get back on topic...

I agree with the OP, hopefully the AI learns how to use the naval units properly. Then all naval units in the game should have importance enough, so that building them will be benficial. All the ships that become available should have their day in the sun.

There was one thing I wanted to talk about are there any religious beliefs that will help the naval game? I would like to make some naval based religion of some sort. The Cult of the Ancient Mariner or some such religious entity dealing with the sea, Jonahs, and why not to hate, just for hate's sake, unless you have a fathomable reason to do so. To elaborate, if somebody crosses you. They better watch out. Vengeance is the path to Righteousness in this here religion. Ahab's very words cry out to the congregation, "I'll chase him round Good Hope, and round the Horn, and round the Norway Maelstrom, and round perdition's flames before I give him up." HA HA!!!

[Raiki]

Originally Posted by vcutag

Have they said anything about fixing the ability for submarines to cross into enemy waters? It's always driven me crazy that subs no longer have that ability, especially given the lack of map trading.

This has always bothered me too. I never played Civs I-IV, but when I read the description of a submarine as a ship that could only be detected by destroyers...I was stoked. I almost immediately purchased a few and sent them to patrol the waters inside the borders of the civ I was planning to attack soon...

...only to find out that I had to declare war to send my invisible, untraceable submarine through non-open borders.

I was like:

Spoiler:

[nokmirt]

I am surprised there is no promotion for that ability. I wonder if the Dutch Sea Beggar will have that ability. They should have a Promotion_Hidden_Nationality or something. In civ 4 you could change hidden nationality via units.xml if I remember correctly. In the CiV xml the unit choices are extremely limited. Completely dumbed down. Actually, many are there you just have to add them. If you do, remember to put things in the right order.

OK, I think what you could do is this.

<Row>
			<Class>UNITCLASS_SUBMARINE</Class>
			<Type>UNIT_SUBMARINE</Type>
			<PrereqTech>TECH_REFRIGERATION</PrereqTech>
			<Combat>25</Combat>
			<RangedCombat>60</RangedCombat>
			<Cost>375</Cost>
			<Moves>5</Moves>
			<Range>3</Range>
			<CombatClass>UNITCOMBAT_NAVAL</CombatClass>
			<Domain>DOMAIN_SEA</Domain>
			<DefaultUnitAI>UNITAI_RESERVE_SEA</DefaultUnitAI>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_UNIT_SUBMARINE</Description>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIV5_INDUSTRIAL_SUBMARINE_TEXT</Civilopedia>
			<Strategy>TXT_KEY_UNIT_SUBMARINE_STRATEGY</Strategy>
			<Help>TXT_KEY_UNIT_HELP_SUBMARINE</Help>
			<MilitarySupport>true</MilitarySupport>
			<MilitaryProduction>true</MilitaryProduction>
			<Pillage>true</Pillage>
			<IgnoreBuildingDefense>true</IgnoreBuildingDefense>
			<Mechanized>true</Mechanized>
			<AdvancedStartCost>60</AdvancedStartCost>
			<MinAreaSize>20</MinAreaSize>
			<RangeAttackOnlyInDomain>true</RangeAttackOnlyInDomain>
			<XPValueAttack>3</XPValueAttack>
			<XPValueDefense>3</XPValueDefense>
			<UnitArtInfo>ART_DEF_UNIT_SUBMARINE</UnitArtInfo>
			<UnitFlagIconOffset>69</UnitFlagIconOffset>
			<IconAtlas>UNIT_ATLAS_2</IconAtlas>
			<PortraitIndex>22</PortraitIndex>
			<MoveRate>SUB</MoveRate>
		</Row>

<Row>
			<Class>UNITCLASS_SUBMARINE</Class>
			<Type>UNIT_SUBMARINE</Type>
			<PrereqTech>TECH_REFRIGERATION</PrereqTech>
			<Combat>25</Combat>
			<RangedCombat>60</RangedCombat>
			<Cost>375</Cost>
			<Moves>5</Moves>
			<Range>3</Range>
			<CombatClass>UNITCOMBAT_NAVAL</CombatClass>
			<Domain>DOMAIN_SEA</Domain>
			<DefaultUnitAI>UNITAI_RESERVE_SEA</DefaultUnitAI>
			<Description>TXT_KEY_UNIT_SUBMARINE</Description>
			<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_CIV5_INDUSTRIAL_SUBMARINE_TEXT</Civilopedia>
			<Strategy>TXT_KEY_UNIT_SUBMARINE_STRATEGY</Strategy>
			<Help>TXT_KEY_UNIT_HELP_SUBMARINE</Help>
                        <RivalTerritory>true</RivalTerritory>
			<MilitarySupport>true</MilitarySupport>
			<MilitaryProduction>true</MilitaryProduction>
			<Pillage>true</Pillage>
			<IgnoreBuildingDefense>true</IgnoreBuildingDefense>
			<Mechanized>true</Mechanized>
			<AdvancedStartCost>60</AdvancedStartCost>
			<MinAreaSize>20</MinAreaSize>
			<RangeAttackOnlyInDomain>true</RangeAttackOnlyInDomain>
			<XPValueAttack>3</XPValueAttack>
			<XPValueDefense>3</XPValueDefense>
			<UnitArtInfo>ART_DEF_UNIT_SUBMARINE</UnitArtInfo>
			<UnitFlagIconOffset>69</UnitFlagIconOffset>
			<IconAtlas>UNIT_ATLAS_2</IconAtlas>
			<PortraitIndex>22</PortraitIndex>
			<MoveRate>SUB</MoveRate>
		</Row>

There now subs can go into rival territory without having to declare war. You can do the same with nuclear subs too. I tried it with a warrior and it works. Now if you go to attack a rival unit in their territory, or anywhere for that matter, you will be asked if you want to declare war. I do not see a hidden nationality, but this little change make subs do what they are supposed too, scout enemy waters undetected. You just have to watch out for destroyers.

Funny what happened when I tried this with the warrior. The Iroquois, who I was next to had moved their warriors away from their capital to scout. So, the next turn I moved my warrior right next to their capital. The AI moved those warriors right back on their next move, putting one inside the capital. Scouting can wait until later I think. Poor AI did not know what to think.

[CYZ]

I'm guessing both the privateer and submarines may enter enemy territory.

Also, with the new era being added I think the gap from ironclad to destroyers/battleships gets alot bigger. It will make ironclad much more usefull as they will destroy any wooden navy.

[vcutag]

I'm pretty sure there's a custom attribute for units to the effect of "Can enter enemy territory." I don't know why subs don't start with this attribute. (I've played with this in custom maps and it does work.)

[Louis XXIV]

Originally Posted by CYZ

I'm guessing both the privateer and submarines may enter enemy territory.

I'm guessing Subs yes, privateers no. There's no indication that a Privateer is anything but a melee naval unit. It does not appear to be hidden nationality.

[gunter]

Let's take a picture :

Ironclad is a non sense unit, it is being built by 5% of players and just for cosmetic purposes.

Submarines are not among the key units for sure and the difference between the power of the old and modern one is too thin. Uranium should be required to build nuclear boomers and silent hunters.

Battleship is IMO too expensive compared to other naval units and compared to its strenght and its very poor " speed ".

Missile Cruiser comes too late and they are not a modern battleships, they are more a slightly upgraded Destroyers IMO.

Destroyers will become melee, this is an debatable choice. I do not agree but that's how it will go. Why BTW this choice ? This can be slightly discussed if you agree.

Last but not the least Kings and Gods it is supposed to bring a little boost to the naval warfare but to be honest reading the rumors and the official news I do not see any sign of this boost anywhere, am I the only one ? Which sign of naval warfare AI boost do you see ? I see none of them ,pity.

[vcutag]

It seems to me that ironclads suffer the same problem that musketmen do. Usually, by that point, I've got a decent supply of frigates/caravels that upgrade directly to destroyers, or longswordsmen to riflemen. If there was a way to upgrade longswordsmen to musketmen, I'd use them more. Same with the ironclad; if there was a unit that upgraded to it, I'd use it more.

[malitano]

So if destroyers are melee I would assume every early naval unit is turned to melee until the battleship era. that would makes sense. The only thing that doesnt fit is the submarine. it has to remain as a ranged unit. that would make it useful.

I look forward to the naval changes, and heres hoping that the AI is actually a worthy opponent now. I loved playing Japan and recreating the combined fleet.

[Louis XXIV]

Frigates are ranged. Likely, either a Trireme or Galeass (ideally the latter) is ranged. Privateers and Destroyers are the only ones we know for certain are melee.

[Ajuga]

Well there needs to be a melee and ranged unit for roughly each era, right now we have barely any options in the ancient, classical and medieval era. Which is strange because there were ships in the medieval era. (The Caravel for example.)

In the Ancient era there should be the Triremes as melee ships and the Galleys as ranged ships.
In the Medieval Era there should be Caravels as melee ships and Carracks as ranged ships.
In the Renaissance Era there should be Privateers as melee ships and Frigates as ranged ships.
With the Ironclad as an industrial ranged ship with a high melee defence.
In the Modern Era there should be Destroyers as melee ships, Battleships as ranged ships, Submarines as the general anti-ship unit, with Carries and Missile Cruisers as general 'siege/support' units.

That would work well in my opinion. Submarines obviously being ranged with the exception that they can't attack land. Nuclear submarines being a better and stronger version that requires uranium.

I also think that all ships and units should be able to embark on ocean tiles but that they suffer damage each turn they do. (Wild waters are to much for those ships to handle at that time.)
Because those older ships were used in the past to set sail over oceans anyway.

[Louis XXIV]

The Galeass is a new medieval ship. It comes with Compass.

[Bechhold]

The only reason to build Ironclads is, as someone already stated, if your playing Polynesia which gives you double advantage not only against Frigates but also they can enter ocean tiles and pretty much give you offensive muscle, albeit for a short while. Besides that no reason to build them unless you are being zerged by the AI via the ocean. Which I doubt happens.

Besides that I too am getting concerned that G&K is more grandeur than actual substance.

[AriochIV]

We do know the early tech tree, and the Trireme is the only Ancient or Classical naval unit. The Trireme really has to be melee. It wouldn't make any sense for there to be an ancient ranged naval unit and no ancient melee naval unit, not least of which because the real trireme's primary weapon was its ram. We do know that the Quinquereme, which replaces the Trireme for Carthage, is definitely a melee naval unit.

There are no new naval units until Compass in the late Medieval era, and then immediately after are more in quick succession:

Compass: Galleass (Dromon)
Astronomy: Caravel (Turtle Ship)
Navigation: Frigate (Ship of the Line), Privateer (Sea Beggar)
Steam Power: Ironclad

The complication is that the Caravel, Frigate, Privateer and Ironclad are all contemporaries, and so none is going to upgrade to the other. So the question is whether the Galleass is melee, and upgrades to a Privateer, or is ranged, and upgrades to the Frigate.

If the Galleass is melee, and upgrades from the Trireme and to the Privateer, then this allows a relatively clean, regular line of upgrades thus:

Trireme -> Galleass -> Privateer -> Destroyer

It also makes sense, because galleys weren't really ranged until the development of gunpowder, which is not available until the Renaissance, at least one tier after the Medieval era in which the Galleass is available. A ranged Galleass would also require the Trireme to upgrade to the Privateer, which seems awkward.

The ranged upgrade path is a little bit messier, because the Caravel, Frigate and Ironclad are all contemporaries, and exist alongside each other. The Frigate and Ironclad probably upgrade directly to the Battleship. I'm not sure what the Caravel would upgrade to, as there is no replacement "scout" ship. It might still upgrade to the Destroyer, which might make sense if the Caravel was melee. But there's no proper upgrade to the Scout, either (when upgraded by a ruin, it changes to an Archer).

Regardless of how it's actually set up, I do hope they change the Turtle Ship to replace something (perhaps the Galleass) instead of the Caravel. It's terrible to play the Koreans without a decent exploring naval unit.

[GeoModder]

Originally Posted by vcutag

It seems to me that ironclads suffer the same problem that musketmen do. Usually, by that point, I've got a decent supply of frigates/caravels that upgrade directly to destroyers, or longswordsmen to riflemen. If there was a way to upgrade longswordsmen to musketmen, I'd use them more. Same with the ironclad; if there was a unit that upgraded to it, I'd use it more.

Longswordsmen still are 2 points stronger then Musketmen I thought? The upgrade to a riflemen is more expensive though (IIRC).
And these days Ironclads in CiV vanilla upgrade to Battleships.

[AriochIV]

Originally Posted by GeoModder

Longswordsmen still are 2 points stronger then Musketmen I thought? The upgrade to a riflemen is more expensive though (IIRC).

Longswordsmen and Musketmen are both 16 strength currently. The Musketmen are actually more expensive t build, but don't require Iron.