[BTS] Masochistic Deity Serie - Tokugawa Ieyasu

[lymond]

Nice job, Pete! I'd tried the worker steal option to much regret

[Tachywaxon]

Originally Posted by lymond

Nice job, Pete! I'd tried the worker steal option to much regret

Spoiler:

He he, you realized you are not the only lucky with copper within capital's BFC!

[Tachywaxon]

Spoiler:

Logically, if choke doesn't work, then an organized rush is necessity. Nonetheless, at least, the RNG was enough generous to put a natural WE for Shaka...so we can breathe a little.

Since the Great Lighthouse just requires Sailing in addition to all the techs necessary to cataphant rush, then I tried to get the strongest water wonder to at least maintain a virtual economical power. And +6 for main continent cities and +9 for the sole island city are enormous!
And it ended up I was able to start the rush around the same time as PeteJ, but I have an economical backup to maintain afloat technologically.

I bribe Hatshe with Construction, CoL and another tech to keep Shaka busy while I slowly crunch him. Shame the war started by Shaka didn't last long. Seriously, Shaka! Rushing with 4 cities, he's really psychotic!

A big shame I couldn't settle that nice island with 2 fishes plot...Pacal II! I friggin' hate you forever...

I have CoL and bulbed philo. Just a shame stupid babylonian got it before me. Now, the lib route is risky.

Oh, the AP was decided! Hinduism! And two of my cities are Hindu. I voted for Hatshe. Perhaps...she will take the holy war proposal as Shaka is hindu in judaism. And Hammu is a full member not at war...
I really hope so.

Pacal II is friendly with Shaka...ugh. Please no peacevassaling. I wonder if I should go feudalism by myself after trading Monarchy. But Shaka is not widely appreciated. And he's a weakling...it seems.

EDIT: Oh...I forgot to mention I managed to explore with the warrior in the same way as I did in my first attempt (wasn't hard to remember as the narrow passage led me 5/6 of the moves). Seems to lead to later GLH wonder message instead of bummer 1800 BC as PeteJ mentioned.

Spoiler:

Can you believe this? My expectations were good thanks to Hatshesup, but Hammu even wanted to join in the holy war; that's insane! Pacal II and Justinian are brought against their will!!!!

[Tachywaxon]

Okay, I retire. The frustration is unbearable. This is my lesson to play as fast as other people.

Spoiler:

If I haven't forgotten to whip the city, then I wouldn't have lost it to other nations.
Unless I go back I try to rearrange that blunder, I can't bear the continuation knowing that city was mine without doubt.

[BornInCantaloup]

Too bad, Tachywaxon
Maybe next try ?

I tried again 'till 600 BC today and reached a playable position.

Spoiler:

Tech path :
BW (thx guys) -> Sailing -> Myst (border pops) -> Masonry (do NOT settle 2nd city before Masonry is in) -> Pottery (commerce boost) -> Hunting -> AH -> Writing.

Build orders :
Workboat -> Warrior (incomplete) -> Worker (size 2) -> 3 Warriors out (coz I lost 1 ; need 2 to protect the settlement) -> Settler (whipped + chop) -> Galley. Then Worker, LH, GLH.

Could get GLH on 1240 BC. Amazing as it may be, it was the 3rd wonder built... Oracle went on 775 BC. Didn't attempt it

In screens, it gives :

Act 1, bypassing Shaka :

Spoiler:

Act 2, second city settled :

Spoiler:

A settler is being shipped. And Kyoto is ready to whip another.
Unfortunately, Shaka killed the southern "Palace" spot by settling 1NW of the Rice.

Act 3, Shaka reveals his war target :

Spoiler:

The land :

Spoiler:

Kyoto may become the NE city. But first...



(Yeah, got the Marble)
... There is a barb city to capture.
And Pacal's closest garrison is 2 Chariots. I suspect he does not have metal. I'll build units, now. EDIT : nevermind, Pacal will trade Iron...
And workers, first. I've been stuck at 2 workers.

Religious situation looks very good.
I have just finished my library in Kyoto and will soon get my first GP. I'm hesitant to research Aesthetics right now (Alphabet is on the table) or to wait for the potential GS and an Academy.

[shakabrade]

@BiC

Spoiler:

Very unusual approach. I thought maintenance would kill you, but you are doing just fine. I am looking forward to seeing the rest of the game. Nice out of the box thinking to resolve being boxed in.

@Tachy

Spoiler:

Try again, or just reload. Be a nice host. It won't matter in the end anyway, since 3 unknown AIs have probably more land than our continent. Yes, been playing too
Only until 1AD so this is just my opinion on overseas runaway AI. Maybe they are on separate islands, but not very likely. Culture is the most viable VC here. I'll still try something more militaristic.

[shakabrade]

I took the more obvious path, alongside PeteJ and Tachywaxon.
Second attempt since I forgot to whip my first settler and that would annoy me too much to continue.

Spoiler:

Mining--BW since we start with fishing and want to build GLH. You want to prechop those forests in time. GLH can go very early. I built it around 1520BC.

Second settler (third city) went on the fish+shared pig island for lucrative +2 routes.

Didn't go Aesthetics but went HBR instead. It wasn't much different and it is required for WEs. Sometimes AIs don't want to trade it just yet, and that would affect my attack date. Got Alpha for HBR, then traded around, just like Aesthetics.

Noticed there's an island north of my island and whipped Monument ASAP so I get culture bridge for my galley. It worked and I got myself another island (2 fish!). I also built work boat explorer quite early and explored all the way to Pacal when GLH was built. Foreign trade routes are such a boost.

Edit: Forgot to mention I am going to kill Shaka soon. Hatty is probably next. And I'll switch to hindu when I get time or someone requests me.

Some screenies 1AD:

Spoiler:

You can see unknown AIs are doing just fine without us, christian or confu lovefest possible.

[BornInCantaloup]

Originally Posted by shakabrade

@BiC

Spoiler:

Very unusual approach. I thought maintenance would kill you, but you are doing just fine. I am looking forward to seeing the rest of the game. Nice out of the box thinking to resolve being boxed in.

Spoiler:

Aye settling 10+ tiles away delayed the expansion but also "eats" some of the AIs' lands. Peacefully ; this is certainly a low investment compared to a military build up. Also gives 2 more neighbours for war targets.
Settling that far wouldn't be very viable in every situation but with a wonder (GLH/Oracle), it is at least doable. Not to mention that my land grab in the east wasn't perfect. One could claim much more land.

I'll try not to lose before 500 AD, now.
Nice date for your GLH & godspeed for your elephant action

[Tachywaxon]

Originally Posted by shakabrade

@Tachy

Spoiler:

Try again, or just reload. Be a nice host. It won't matter in the end anyway, since 3 unknown AIs have probably more land than our continent. Yes, been playing too
Only until 1AD so this is just my opinion on overseas runaway AI. Maybe they are on separate islands, but not very likely. Culture is the most viable VC here. I'll still try something more militaristic.

Spoiler:

Given the position, trying again isn't necessary. Yes, reloading will be fine. But I'll try two-three turns ago as I think it may be possible to retake the city via ordering the stacks to target another city. But as a blunder of that magnitude, I won't go as far as the moment I forgot to whip the soldier against the impi. I really need to accept a minimum of an error. Learning goes through error.

Anyways, all my saves turn by turn are still in my folder. Always wary of a possible computer bugging or power failure.

I gave up under the ire; now I've calmed down and I am more flegmatic to the situation. And that AP holy war is way too good of a move to try again. Now, the possibility to be friendly with everyone is a possibility.

Justinian = theocracy
Pacal II = HR
Hatshe = no need of OR as she has low modifier ceiling for friendly
Hammurabi = Bureaucracy

At some point, I will go back to no religion to have the whole continent friendly with me. At that point, space can be pondered as a serious way out of this infernal game.


BTW, quite a fast initial empire for you and goddammit you got the two fishes island!
Likely, I underchopped and whipped early in my game while thinking many debilitating theories of inefficiencies. Fast REX (pleonasm... ) is all.

@BIC
That's a really interesting way out of the small fortress island. But as you said, in general, it is not recommendable.
First, maintenance.
Second, shaka is next to you and if you don't know any WE of his, then you may be screwed
Third, barbs on deity are killer and you are exposing to great dangers.

But this game isn't normal and I completely approve retries. With some knowledge, indeed, that's a valid peaceful strategy up to cuirassier. But be fast for Liberalism, it can go before 800 AD.

@shakabrade

In fact, I have no idea what is the role of a host. I thought a host was someone putting a game so people who, for some reason, doesn't like to roll random games by themselves, can play in community and compare skills plus discuss strat. and tips. I think you are confusing with someone doing a playthrough. Anyways, the game is a challenge for me and via that challenger I'll get better on deity.

@PeteJ

Spoiler:

No, you are not lucky in your game to see shaka being a sitting duck in tech. He consistently falls back for some reason. He prefers Machinery route over the religious route up to feudalism. And crossbows are nothing vs War Elephants.

Another reason is his stubborn attitude to attack Hatshesup around settling 4 cities. Building units that early with few economical improvements is just handicapping himself.

BTW, nice catch. I just noticed you got GW. I see a opportunity for you to catch up: spy economy. Just try to get CoL and you are good. And if you manage to snatch a win without help of the strongest wonder, you've got the most valid win of all the participants...that is not relying on the random factor of wonders.

[shakabrade]

^^
I always REX on deity without thinking. It is my rule of thumb. I have something against small empires Libbing to Cuirs lately. I never ever choke (but that's because I suck at that).

Indeed, host just rolls maps, but you are HoF champion so I did have some expectations. You do have to be a bit obsessive for that, right?

I like shadowing because it feels like multiplayer, so, more fun, you learn stuff from those who fare better. It also makes me play leaders I normally wouldn't and as we can see, maps which are not really feng-shui.

Regarding PeteJ's GW, I wouldn't say it isn't relying on luck. Toku doesn't start with mining, isn't IND, and hills are forrested, so they don't yield as much as mines, therefore it is late and lucky GW . But it is definetly more masochistic approach. His economy is bleeding to death.

[BornInCantaloup]

Originally Posted by Tachywaxon

@BIC
That's a really interesting way out of the small fortress island. But as you said, in general, it is not recommendable.
First, maintenance.
Second, shaka is next to you and if you don't know any WE of his, then you may be screwed
Third, barbs on deity are killer and you are exposing to great dangers.

But this game isn't normal and I completely approve retries. With some knowledge, indeed, that's a valid peaceful strategy up to cuirassier. But be fast for Liberalism, it can go before 800 AD.

Spoiler:

Mostly agreed
Barbs are the main reason I had to retry. I've tried to protect my settlement with 1 warrior and building an axeman first. Doesn't work At least I'll have learnt that. On the last try, I also got rather lucky as Pacal and Shaka had plenty of roaming units. That wasn't the case in earlier attempts where I also had less defending forces (and thus got killed by barbs).

I don't think foreknowledge has anything to do with settling that far, though. Building an exploring galley instead of a workboat does the difference.

@ replays : I'm the "try and lose" type of player. I don't mind losing. Actually, I may prefer losing to winning. I can see how the game unfolds faster when I lose than when I win. And, precisely, I play out of curiosity to see how different attempts unfold (mostly).
Put otherwise : losing is often fun whereas winning can be tedious.

[Tachywaxon]

I think I managed a winning position. I did not mention leaders of other continents in the spoiler, so feel free to read.

Spoiler:

Okay, I managed to manipulate AI's SoD to preserve the city from AI's hands.
So, after all, with a little care, the moment I forgot to whip wasn't the end of the world if I cared to observe SoD's.

Now, Pacal II, Hammurabi and Hatshesup are friendly with me. Not sure this will happen with Justinian soon enough. But I fall behind badly! At least, I'm safe in my continent as only Pacal II was the last danger on PLEASED.
Other continent helped me with catching up a bit.
Now, Astro and boats, around >8 settlers are in route to virgin lands to gain more lands as my tech rate is still awful. I don't think any military campaigns are possible anymore up to modern times.

Can you believe this: Pacal II teching Radio in 4 turns around 1200-1300 AD.

Originally Posted by shakabrade

Regarding PeteJ's GW, I wouldn't say it isn't relying on luck. Toku doesn't start with mining, isn't IND, and hills are forrested, so they don't yield as much as mines, therefore it is late and lucky GW . But it is definetly more masochistic approach. His economy is bleeding to death.

No, I don't have any problem with that wonder gotten out of luck. In fact, that's probably his only backdoor out of this hell of techers.
Even with The Great Lighthouse I fell behind, so I can't imagine without.
Indeed, his win if it happens will be the most legit amongst us.

Spoiler:

Am I better? I got lucky AP is under Hindu banner and Shaka was converted to another religion so the holy war was an option. Now I have the max +3 of share wars with everyone.
The game is utterly random and even without huts or random events, the game is sometimes over generous.

And did I mentioned the AI gave me three techs. Imagine that!

[Habitus]

Originally Posted by Tachywaxon

In fact, I have no idea what is the role of a host. I thought a host was someone putting a game so people who, for some reason, doesn't like to roll random games by themselves, can play in community and compare skills plus discuss strat. and tips. I think you are confusing with someone doing a playthrough. Anyways, the game is a challenge for me and via that challenger I'll get better on deity.

If its more than posting games for discussion I'm the worst host ever
May delete and reinstall Buffy to see if i can get this game working since not read any spoilers and the bits outside them sound interesting

[shakabrade]

1080AD

Spoiler:

I got really lucky too, buddhist AP , although many were pleased with me never got any techs, while I was beating Shaka, Shaka peacevassaled to Pacal II. And I ended up in war with largest and most advanced AI. Needles to say, backward Shaka got Monarchy, Feudalism and Engineering in couple of turns and upgraded impi to pikes and archers to LBs. All of my foreign trade routes were ruined, and I was attacked from north. And this is the result 1080 AD:

Spoiler:

Land kinda resembles real Japan.

Lol, forgot to save game before exiting, pure luck I saved 1070AD. So, now, you have screenies from the future.
And here's the save:WAR!!!!!!.CivBeyondSwordSave

[shakabrade]

I think I am in winning position here. Won't be able to play till next week so I will have to be patient.

Spoiler:

Nothing happened but catching up in techs and production. I tried teching stuff I could trade and it went very well. Kyoto was used as a GP farm for two GAs which helped my empire to get back on its feet, it has been pumping GMs for trade missions (3-4, cant really remember). kwaDukuza (flood plain city in my game) is a new capitol in which I built OU and WS and it is fantastic.

Hammurabi has been befriended as he was a tech leader and I could get some techs from him nobody else had. I also needed someone for defensive pact. I have also founded Sid's Sushi in my capitol so I could get those factory cities more production tiles.

I ran hinduism a bit, but just for speeding up infra. There were many religions out there and so I switched to Free Religion so I'dont step on too many toes and it is better to deal with emancipation unhappiness.

War and losing two good cities to me must have seriously crippled Pacal as he was nothing like usual tech beast. Hannibal has made Persia vassal, Hatshespsut lately, and Ottomans peacevassaled for most of the time. They have broken free recently. Hannibal is definetly #1 threat and I will have to nuke him.
I have almost prepared myself for nuclear warfare. I am also almost done with research for this game. Could trade Fission for flight (paratroopers), but I want to keep my tactical advantage while they all build their spaceships.

Screenies on the way to 1750AD:

Spoiler:

I am about to settle this spot so I can harbor subs for killing Hannibal, and to quickly transport tactical nukes since subs must be in the city or in fort in your territory. So now, my subs don't have to wait for nukes to complete. It'll save ~10 turns. I can also nuke 3 cities from this position and perform paradrops.

Anyone willing can finish this.

[Quibblesome]

^^ I find it amazing that someone got this game into a winning position. I've been lurking on this thread since its start, tried the game (lol, I am not used to Deity, let alone this start) so your accomplishment here is massively impressive to me! GJ Sir!

[shakabrade]

I am flattered.

There are people who would have played this much better. Too bad they they are not active anymore.

Tachywaxon, however, could be next in line and is very active and all around player. Watch out for her.

[Tachywaxon]

^
Holy cows! You have twice the research power as me!
Now, you annoy me triiice as much!

Gotta admit I think I'm quite weak on empire development and research power. I was up to around 1460 AD...but didn't make the update yet.

I sufficed my research on abusing tech trading while putting wealth in all my cities. Big mistake I see. No infra and 13 turns for medice. Yuck. At least I control mostly the

Spoiler:

islands!

Via these, I hoped to fare around 1700s.

Hmmmm...nukes. This would be the first time ever playing with these. Don't even know how they work. But I know they worth 10 war success point. So, theoritically, 4 nukes, then capitulation. Should be feasible with my 22 cities and possible 24 later.

I gotta admit I had a pain in the chest while looking your screenshots and this mean I feel overwhelmed by stronger than I. Lots of work of learning I need!

Do you accept peacevassaling?

[Habitus]

Now I've got your saves working I'll have to try this

[Habitus]

I can see why this is hard, failed at 1400BCish due to

Spoiler:

Shaka DoWing on me, and me forgetting that Impi have 2 movement so I think i had time to move a Spearman into my blocking city (2N of Cows on Grass Hill) and whip the barracks into an Axe rather than just straight whip the axe =/