[BTS] Anyone know why it is taking me 130 turns to research Currency at 50% research?

[Leathaface]

I am playing on Prince level. Kublai Khan declared war on me, attacked my newest (Size 1) city but I built a walls in time and had 10 archers on a hill. I took out his guys and he accepted peace.

I then got Alphabet. But now it is taking me 130 turns to research currency?!?! I have just over 500 gold and each turns costs me 10 gold. This hasn't happened to me before, maybe if research was a 10% of even 0% it would take that many turns. This is my 2nd game at prince BTW.

[Archon_Wing]

Your economy has tanked-- either due to city maintenance or too many units. Maybe you built your cities too far apart or have too many cities. Try to run scientists or work any tile that has commerce. You also want to make sure your cities are connected to the trade network, since you get commerce from that.

You can also build research, since you got alpha.

[2metraninja]

50% means nothing. 50% of zero is still zero. If you dont have much commerce, you will have slow tech rate. Or you are doing something completely weird.

[King Kalmah]

When stepping up a level or two its all about land management.

Find flood plains and cottage them fast.Also look for gold or gems.If none are around then look for the calendar resources.

Also keep in mind 50% of 10 beakers is always gonna be 5 beakers...

get more beakers!

[Leathaface]

What is a beaker?

Also, alluding to 2metraninja's post, is research percentage not the be all and end all of researching techs? Does commerce in itself play a big part?

[skyclad]

Commerce are the "coins" you get from working tiles like cottages and dye, and you get it from other places too like trade routes. The research percentage (and later culture, and espionage) turns a % of your commerce into science. So if you have a 100 commerce but running at 50%, you are researching faster than someone who has 20 commerce but running at 20%.

Commerce = coins, can be used with the slider to produce gold, science, culture or espionage
Beakers = raw science, is always there are not affected by slider (fe scientist specialists)
gold stacks = raw gold, is not affected by slider but.

[lymond]

Originally Posted by Leathaface

Does commerce in itself play a big part?

Commerce plays a huge part in everything dealing with the sliders. The Sliders are completely tied to Commerce (the coins found on tiles and trade routes). In other words, the sliders are meaningless without commerce.

If the research slider is at 0% (100% tax) then all commerce is turned into gold. If research is at 50%, then 50% of commerce goes to beakers(research) and 50% to gold.

If you raise the culture slider, then commerce is turned into culture.

If you raise the EP slider, then commerce is turned to espionage points.

It's as simple as that.

How you use all that is based on your strategy and how you have your empire setup.

You say you are running research slider at 50% but have 500 gold. If I had 500 gold I would be running at 100% to get in Currency. You can also build research with Alpha to speed things up. Currency is the most important tech in the game.

However, based on the # turns you mentioned, I really wonder if you have any libraries up or scientists running. That is a very important thing to do early. Libraries multiply the beakers earned from raising the research slider, as well as those from scientists,which also improve you beaker rate and allow you to get that first academy - when then further multiplies beakers in a good commerce city like your cap.

I also wonder, just based on what you have written, about your city placement and whether you have trade routes hooked up.

We cannot give you more pointed advice though if you don't post save games. Something we've mentioned on one or more occasions.

Also, I've mentioned numerous times to post these threads over in the Strategy & Tips forum, as well as spend more time over there to learn the game. You've been posting here sporadically for quite some time, but I'm not sure I'm really seeing much improvement in your game. Ofc, again really hard to know without ever seeing your games. However, your questions are still very very basic and these concepts should already be mastered. I only say all this because I want to help you. I wonder though if you even listen to me and others as I've never seen you respond to anything I've said or act upon it.

[Htadus]

Originally Posted by Leathaface

What is a beaker?
Beaker is the name we use ( at least by civfanatic site) to call the green light bulb icon (representing science).

Also, alluding to 2metraninja's post, is research percentage not the be all and end all of researching techs?
What he said is true. The percentage means nothing if you do not have enough commerce tiles being used. There are 3 ways to do research plus building science (this is not efficient most of the time).
1. Convert commerce (including commerce you get from traderoutes and the capital) to bulbs (another name for beakers) using the slider.
2. Using Scientist specialists in a city or any specialist while running Representation.
3. Using Great people to Discover (or partial discover) techs.

And then there is building of science via converting hammers directly to bulbs if you know Alphabet. Does commerce in itself play a big part?

Yes commerce can and does play a major part if you are generationg commerce via resources, cottages, trade routes and resource trading for gold per turn basis.

Originally Posted by skyclad

Commerce are the "coins" you get from working tiles like cottages and dye, and you get it from other places too like trade routes. The research percentage (and later culture, and espionage) turns a % of your commerce into science. So if you have a 100 commerce but running at 50%, you are researching faster than someone who has 20 commerce but running at 20%.Or 100% as OP mentioned

Commerce = coins, can be used with the slider to produce gold, science, culture or espionage
Beakers = raw science, is always there are not affected by slider (fe scientist specialists) I do not think this is correct. Beakers are affected by the slider, even if itis only the 8 cpt the capital get.
gold stacks = raw gold, is not affected by slider but.

Again, if you are refering to generation of gold each turn, then this is not true. The science slider also ,by default, affects the gold since the commerce go through the % multiplier. @ 50% science and 100 commerce per turn you get 50 bulbs. The remainder converts to gold. That gold pay for maintanance and the difference is the accumilating gold. So if the maintanance is 40 gpt(gold per turn) then there is +10 gpt accumilation.

[lymond]

Originally Posted by Htadus

resource trading for gold per turn basis.

how does this point relate the commerce

[lymond]

Originally Posted by skyclad

Beakers = raw science, is always there are not affected by slider (fe scientist specialists)
gold stacks = raw gold, is not affected by slider but.

both of these are very much affected by the slider although there are other "static" means of producing beakers and gold

[elmurcis]

If you are military safe than after getting Alphapet get research in some high production cities and get that currency as fast as possible (if thats 130 turns than even few extra beakers from some city will help). And use gold in your treasury to run 100% research. 1 extra trade route is huge boost (and again - have all cities connected? only than will get that extra trade route).
Also check maintence - how much cost units.. maybe units are outside borders and should get back in borders to save money..

[Htadus]

Originally Posted by lymond

how does this point relate the commerce

Well, lets see. First I hope you not starting a commerce is not gold thing. But let me try to explain how it is an intergral part of the research picture.

Say that at 100 % science the empire can generate 50 bpt at -10 gpt deficit. And it has 0 gold in the bank. So it can not research at 100%. @ 80% science slide the net commerce is 0 gpt and 40bpt.

Lets say the Empire has 2 resources and 2 AI willing to give 10 gpt each per trade.
Now it can reserach at 100% because the deficit is addressed via the trades. (Now come to think of it, I am willing to bet the total science output may have gone up. All I remember was that net commerce went from red to green. Next time I need to pay more attention) So as far as the overall research is concern the trade routes are an intergral part of the commerce economy picture.

Disclaimer: The above statement is only based on observation during typical game play and not based on scientific testing.

[Leathaface]

Here is my save:

I've BUG installed BTW.

Also, I have won at Noble twice and am doing OK in Prince so far, i've not being annihalated yet, so I reckon i'm getting better definitely.

[Archon_Wing]

Switch to hereditary rule for more happiness.

Also, you have nary a single improved cottage; well one is sitting on a plains tile. Actually you have no scientists either. Actually, you barely any improved tile. Research and money doesn't grow on trees. Chop them down and improve those tiles! Build at least 3 times the workers you have right now and plop a cottage down on every riverside grassland tile you can find. We'll sort the rest later, but at this point any improvement on most of these tiles is going to matter.

[lymond]

Originally Posted by Htadus

Well, lets see. First I hope you not starting a commerce is not gold thing. But let me try to explain how it is an intergral part of the research picture.

Yep, I was referring to commerce not being gold. (which I know you understand ..so my question was basically rhetorical ) In the context of what you wrote originally, the mention of trading resources for gold is not applicable. Of course, it affects your ability to manipulate the slider, but it does not have a direct bearing on commerce.

All I remember was that net commerce went from red to green.

I do not understand this point. When does commerce ever appear in a red or green (negative vs. positive) status and what in the game ever shows such a status.

[Htadus]

Originally Posted by Leathaface

Here is my save:

I've BUG installed BTW.

Also, I have won at Noble twice and am doing OK in Prince so far, i've not being annihalated yet, so I reckon i'm getting better definitely.

You probably are improving. However, not knowing currency at 500AD is hurting your game. Most experienced players consider that currency is more important than Civil Services. I usually like to trade for it but the gain from currency, particularly for larger empire, is undeniable. At lower levels you will have to tech it yourself to get it early and once at emperror and above you can trade for it.

I do not have BUG, so won't be commenting on your save. However based on what Archon_Wing noted, I recommend you take his advise.

[plasmacannon]

I just checked your save game and I can tell you what you need to do.
Chop down every forest next to every river and build cottages in it's place.
Put markets in the queue, now that you have them, so the chops will go towards them.
You have 8 cities and only 2 have your religon. If it isn't spreading to your cities fast enough, you could put missionaries in the queue too. Anything instead of archers, as military units have an upkeep cost. You have the population in most of your cities, to support the extra happiness from the religon too.

You did build your cities farther apart than needed.
It looks like you did go for the resourses, which is good, but with that much distance, you must determine where a city can go and leap over it and backfill later. If that is you strategy. In some of the places where you expanded out to, the gaps left, won't leave you with decent cities. In other places, I can see 1-2 cities fitting in.
For example:
Gondar and Addas Ababa could have been settled 2 tiles East and closer to your Capitol, reducing your maintenaince costs. Where they are now, neither can even use your copper mine.

This is a Great Plains map. You have Copper and Iron, but No Horse resourse.
I would consider attacking one of your neighbors to get this.
The best choice is Saladin.
I don't like attacking Protective archers, but with him being the only one who is Hindu with 9 of you in Buddhism, you can gain some allies to help you fight the "heathen".

That's cool to see you have an Ocean down there.
Getting those coastal fish and clam will net you some extra health that the others can't get.

Just a suggestion, if you have the opportunity to settle on two different Hill tiles next to a river with all other things being equal, I'd chose the Plains Hill over the Grassland Hill. The Plains Hill requires more food to utilize otherwise and instead will generate an extra production immediately for your new city. The Grassland Hill will not do this, and is easier to feed for it's production.

[Htadus]

Originally Posted by lymond

Yep, I was referring to commerce not being gold. (which I know you understand ..so my question was basically rhetorical ) In the context of what you wrote originally, the mention of trading resources for gold is not applicable. Of course, it affects your ability to manipulate the slider, but it does not have a direct bearing on commerce.

I am not walking into this firestorm.

I do not understand this point. When does commerce ever appear in a red or green (negative vs. positive) status and what in the game ever shows such a status.

First, the example illustrate how gpt trades affect the economy.

OK. Allow me to clarify the collors i am speaking of. I play Buffy mostly. On the top left hand side of the screen usually tell me my current accumilated gold and per turn commerce to gold difference. For example in the following save show 222 gold in bank and +52 gpt accumilation at 70% science.

Suppose at 100% science the per turn diffrence went from +52 to -200. Then the -200 number will show i yellow collor indicating you are doing deficit research and able to sustain for that turn.

Now let say the differenace is -300 gpt instead of +52. Then the number will display in red text to alert the player the proposed defict research is not possible since -300 gpt exceed the 222 gold in the bank. The colors are the default colors since I do not modify that part of Buffy.

Spoiler:

Finally allow me to tell you a statement one of my First Sargents said when I was in service.
"It does not matter if a dying soldire shoot you in the head or a sniper hiding in the woods. If he miss the helmet and hit the head, the results are the same."

So similarly, wheather the source is via commerce sources or trade routes or gpt trades or accumilated gold, in the end what really matter is where the empires economy is standing.

Green at 100% science is where the empire should be.

Is it not the reason for building wealth?

[lymond]

Ha...sorry for playing with you, Htadus. Of course, you know I know all that. Actually deficit research shows red whether using BUG or not. (BUFFY is BUG by the way....and BULL and HOF mod)

My point was simply referring to the context of your original response to Leatha:

Yes commerce can and does play a major part if you are generationg commerce via resources, cottages, trade routes and resource trading for gold per turn basis.

GPT for resources does not "generate commerce" nor is it a form of commerce. However, as you described correctly above, the extra GPT certainly affects your ability to utilize existing commerce, however you choose, for the better and, thus, improves your economy. So I wanted to make sure that was clear for Leatha. Although I have a terrible habit of being rhetorical, for which I'm truly sorry

edit: and I appreciate your service to our country

[lymond]

Leatha - What is your thinking behind teching Masonry first? Get your food resources up asap...

You should be in Bureacracy and Hereditary rule.

Great Plains can have very odd resources distributions. You have some strange land, but your cities are very far apart with huge swaths of unused land. Land probably calls for lots of cottages or farms and specialists...neither of which I see here.

If Aksum had developed some cottages you would have a decent bureau cap and a lot more commerce.

Trade resources for gold and techs for gold. Lots of gold out there, but you don't have the tech superiority that you SHOULD have at this level. Don't trade CS yet, but Feud is an AI priority tech so don't self tech it. Tech something you can trade for it later.

Steles are a complete waste unless you are going for a culture victory. You have them everywhere. Zara is creative.

5 Workers?! You need double the amount. Way too much unimproved soil here. Whip workers out now.

Still, you are not in a bad situation and can easily win. Heck, diplo would be a easy cakes here.