archers dont bombard?

[mithandrirab]

Hello,

since i dunno if this is a bug:

I have the latest release (not svn). In the options ranged bombardment and archer bombardment are enabled. But there is just no icon which let me bombard with em. In addition rams and stuff cant bombard either. Even moving then to the title with the enemy has no effect. Nothing happens.

I doesent even have the icons for bombarding i know from ROM.
And the AI is actually bombarding my city defense with archers?
OK Opportunity Fire is actually working. But my ram still dont attack or bombard. Same archers.

Help is really appreciated.



cheers

[Hydromancerx]

Rams cannot range bombard but they can do city bombard. Remember they are hitting the walls and not tossing stuff like a catapult or shooting like a cannon.

[mithandrirab]

Originally Posted by Hydromancerx

Rams cannot range bombard but they can do city bombard. Remember they are hitting the walls and not tossing stuff like a catapult or shooting like a cannon.

Thank you for your reply. But as i wrote:

I cannot move the ram on an title occupied by the enemy (like an enemy city). If im going to right click on the city a red icon on the city appears (for attacking) but nothing happens. the ram just not move. With the siege unit discovered before (cant remember the name) its the same. they cant attack

[Hydromancerx]

Yeah the Rams cannot attack they can only city bombard. They are a strictly city bombard unit unlike say a cannon which can city bombard AND attack.

[mithandrirab]

OK so how do they city bombard? There is no icon or option for it. And my archers cant as well...?

[Hydromancerx]

There should be a button for city bombard when you are next to a city.

[mithandrirab]

Originally Posted by Hydromancerx

There should be a button for city bombard when you are next to a city.

There is NO Button!

Can anyone please move this thread to the bug section?

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Originally Posted by mithandrirab

There is NO Button!

Can anyone please move this thread to the bug section?

To move a thread you will need to PM a moderator and ask them to move it. You need to be very clear about where you want it moved.

[Thunderbrd]

Rams can't bombard the city. Well... they can and they can't and we're getting stuck in semantics here. They can knock down city defenses but they can't ranged bombard to damage troops (not that I find that works in any of my games with any units that can do this anyhow. It goes through the motions and declares some units were struck but when you look... no damage has been dealt.) Rams are weak early siege units that can ONLY knock down city defenses. So if the city you're up against is out of defenses, they are pretty much useless in any further application aside from defending.

[Necratoid]

I remember when rams got attacks of oppertunity on passing ships... as far as I could tell the defenders had them in their towers and where playing death pool with rocks for that to work.

[Koshling]

Originally Posted by Thunderbrd

Rams can't bombard the city. Well... they can and they can't and we're getting stuck in semantics here. They can knock down city defenses but they can't ranged bombard to damage troops (not that I find that works in any of my games with any units that can do this anyhow. It goes through the motions and declares some units were struck but when you look... no damage has been dealt.) Rams are weak early siege units that can ONLY knock down city defenses. So if the city you're up against is out of defenses, they are pretty much useless in any further application aside from defending.

This. Early anti city defense units can only bombard defenses, and if the city is already at 0% (never built any defensive buildings, and too small to have gem intrinsically) then the button does not appear (and, in relation to attacking that particular city those its are essentially useless)

[Hydromancerx]

Koshling has a point. If your attacking a city with 0% defenses why would you bring rams? There are no defenses to knock down.

[Dancing Hoskuld]

Originally Posted by Thunderbrd

Rams can't bombard the city. Well... they can and they can't and we're getting stuck in semantics here. They can knock down city defenses but they can't ranged bombard to damage troops (not that I find that works in any of my games with any units that can do this anyhow. It goes through the motions and declares some units were struck but when you look... no damage has been dealt.) Rams are weak early siege units that can ONLY knock down city defenses. So if the city you're up against is out of defenses, they are pretty much useless in any further application aside from defending.

Ranged Bombardment does work as far as I can see, you just need to remember that it hits the middle of the defenders not the fast or slow ones and not the main defender, ie top unit in the stack. Basically designed to hit as many as possible on the battle field missing those in the front lines and the siege units at the back.

[Thunderbrd]

So if there's only 2 defenders, I presume it would do nothing to them as there's no 'middle of the stack'? That MIGHT explain why it seems to me to never do anything. It's like the ai doesn't even try to defend its city anymore. But then, I must admit, I usually strike hard and fast at the troops stationed outside the city, hitting them before they consider bringing them inside the walls, so the city is usually painfully under-defended by the time I get there. It's most noteworthy when attacking by sea and avoiding the exterior stack altogether. Blam, you're in the city and his stack is running off to go sit outside another city.

[Koshling]

Originally Posted by Thunderbrd

So if there's only 2 defenders, I presume it would do nothing to them as there's no 'middle of the stack'? That MIGHT explain why it seems to me to never do anything. It's like the ai doesn't even try to defend its city anymore. But then, I must admit, I usually strike hard and fast at the troops stationed outside the city, hitting them before they consider bringing them inside the walls, so the city is usually painfully under-defended by the time I get there. It's most noteworthy when attacking by sea and avoiding the exterior stack altogether. Blam, you're in the city and his stack is running off to go sit outside another city.

For reference the rules the AI uses on stationing defensive troops mean that at any time dee dive units beyond some minimum (which I forget the calculation for currently) can be stationed outside the city in it's immediate neighborhood (on good defensive terrain), subjec to no more than half the total number of defensive units being outside the city tile itself. The was a bug, fixed only about a week befor the v23 release, which was miscounting adjacent units, such that those the o north and east didn't get counted, with the result that the city would gradually empty put down to its last unit and the defense would tend to station itself nearby to the north and east. This should no longer occur, and at all times at leas half of the nearby defensive force should be in the city itself. Furthermore, units defending outside the city should pull back into the city when serious attack stacks get adjacent (ie befor the get to attack the city itself, except n unusual cases with very fast attacking units). If you see this not happening it's probably a bug, and an illustrative save game would be helpful.

[Thunderbrd]

Ok, good improvement there and that explains why I was beginning to see more units in cities nearing the later part of my current game.

But when evaluating whether they should pull back in, I think they need to consider a bit further out than simply adjacent. I feel I need to attack cities without ever taking a round to stand adjacent to them thanks to defenses anyhow so I tend to attack from 2 spcs out. Is it possible for them to evaluate whether any enemy troops are capable of actually attacking the city from where they are and use that to determine whether to hold their ground or not?

This whole function works great for the ai when you pull up land troops against a city that has a single terrain approach but it tends to work a bit against them otherwise. If they were to guard not only the best defended position but even more importantly any low move cost approaches to the city, it would be far more effective. As it is, its a fairly good start for helping the ai to utilize S&D defensively but they pull back into the city as soon as they could so its not really of value to them to be losing out on the fortification bonuses if you can just get around them, which more often than not, you can.

This plotting area of the code is outside my current realm of understanding and I would want to defer to you on these matters anyhow since you are quite good at it and the pioneer for improving ai strategy. So just consider this some feedback I've developed from playing. I would bet the 'bait' works quite nicely against other ai since I do some similar things just to distract them to attempt to take less important, highly defensible targets, but not so well against human opponents whom are smart enough to just ignore those troops and go for the throat.

[Koshling]

Originally Posted by Thunderbrd

Ok, good improvement there and that explains why I was beginning to see more units in cities nearing the later part of my current game.

But when evaluating whether they should pull back in, I think they need to consider a bit further out than simply adjacent. I feel I need to attack cities without ever taking a round to stand adjacent to them thanks to defenses anyhow so I tend to attack from 2 spcs out. Is it possible for them to evaluate whether any enemy troops are capable of actually attacking the city from where they are and use that to determine whether to hold their ground or not?

This whole function works great for the ai when you pull up land troops against a city that has a single terrain approach but it tends to work a bit against them otherwise. If they were to guard not only the best defended position but even more importantly any low move cost approaches to the city, it would be far more effective. As it is, its a fairly good start for helping the ai to utilize S&D defensively but they pull back into the city as soon as they could so its not really of value to them to be losing out on the fortification bonuses if you can just get around them, which more often than not, you can.

This plotting area of the code is outside my current realm of understanding and I would want to defer to you on these matters anyhow since you are quite good at it and the pioneer for improving ai strategy. So just consider this some feedback I've developed from playing. I would bet the 'bait' works quite nicely against other ai since I do some similar things just to distract them to attempt to take less important, highly defensible targets, but not so well against human opponents whom are smart enough to just ignore those troops and go for the throat.

Yes, it can be improved for sure. It was just a relatively simple starting point to build on. If you see tactical situations where it egregiously fails post a save game with commentary, and I'll try to tweak it a bit.

One thing I wanted to do (but it's somewhat complex and I haven't gotten around to it yet) is run pathing analysis to determine likely approach routes and choke points, and have the AI defend those more actively.

[Sgtslick]

Slightly off topic but generally I feel the AI places far too much emphasis on its capital/central cities as opposed to its outlying border cities. Ideally they would realize that the threat is far greater in these outer cities and thus act accordingly.

[Koshling]

Originally Posted by Sgtslick

Slightly off topic but generally I feel the AI places far too much emphasis on its capital/central cities as opposed to its outlying border cities. Ideally they would realize that the threat is far greater in these outer cities and thus act accordingly.

Yes totally. The city danger evaluation code is pretty crappy and needs a rewrite (doesn't take account of location within the empire really). It's something I intend to do sometime.