[C3C] COTM90 - First Spoiler

[civ_steve]

COTM 90 First Spoiler - Japan, the Ancient Age!

Reading Requirements

1. You must be able to research a Middle Age technology.

Posting Restrictions

• Please be discreet about AI locations; however, feel free to discuss contacts and trades.
• No discussions of the middle ages (or later)
• No screenshots of any middle-age (or later) resources.
• Absolutely NO discussion of any other currently active 'X'OTM!

Better get the spoilers out for this one! Warlord level and continents - not surprising, but you're on an isolated island. Kind of icy, too. However, I did put a major continent within close range, so no guessing needed about which way to go. How did your game start out? Where did you establish your capital and why? How did contacts go? And are the AI doing much to challenge you?

[cain3456]

Went se, so I missed the fishes. Getting back to Civ3 after long playing Civ4 has hurt. I got a message around 3000BC that someone was destroyed--did they settle near a volcano? My first builds were--> chop a rax, warrior, warrior, worker, spear, warrior, spear, Colossus, settler.

QSC stats: Yeah, they suck.
2 towns, pop 4. 2 happy, 2 content. 44 tiles.
12 food, 30 shields, forgot how many gold
Colossus, rax, temple
3 warriors, 2 spears, curragh--all vets but curragh, 2 workers
Techs: BW, IW, Alpha, Pot, Wheel, CB.
8 turns from Warcode @ 9 beakers/turn.
1 contact.

It gets better, tho as I make other contacts and expand. A certain well-known backstabber demanded money when I was running a deficit, I refused and they declared. I eventually took the fight to them and grabbed a city. I have since bought embassies with everyone and have tech parity. Should be easy to gain superiority on warlord.

Researching feudalism. Since the land is so crappy, and no irrigation is available, this may be one game where the Feudal government would actually be practical. Running monarch now, but am definitely thinking about a switch.

[Kuhniloo]

Wow, the starting location made the beginning challenging.

I'm new to the game overall, so i'm sure my start was less than impressive (I'm being nice to myself). Actually, I know it was. I settled my capital nearer to the south-eastern coast in order to take advantage of the two silk lux, but in retrospect, I wish i hadn't. After seeing the rest of the island though, I decided that i would rely on coastal cities w/harbors to grow. Lost a settler to barbs and my own stupidity.

As far as research strategy, I made for map making as a priority, thinking that contacts would be worth their weight in gold. This led to a few contacts with leaders, one of whom annoyed me to the point of war, which was not good for them.

Same as cain3456, around 3000bc, got a message that there was somebody I didn't have to worry about anymore. I didn't think about a volcano. I first thought about barbs and realized that didn't make any sense because as far as my noob knowledge goes, they can't destroy a city or civ, they just sack it. I personally think it was another civ. That discussion is for another time and place.

Honestly, thus far, I feel this is an AW game...against the geography and climate.

[Raliuven]

Wow indeed. What a start. Welcome Kuhniloo - hope you stick with it! This game looks like it is going to be tough going; don't get discouraged!

I selected Predator. Considering a UN vote but I may do histograph this time.

I didn't settle until 3900AD and I finally picked the coast to the west by the fish. I made a really stupid placement of my second city by the lake because I picked a coastal postion. Seemed smart until I realized the only way to get water to them there plains was to use a city to bridge the tundra from the lake to the grassland (or wait until I could bring it across the hills). I made granaries a priority to boost growth and so far it has paid off reasonable well, especially with so many trees to chop.

Early contacts via curragh were definately the way to go. Even so, it looks like the AI is having a tough time of it too. And the barbs are horrendous - or maybe a blessing since they are giving me extra gold and keeping the AI occupied.

1375BC contact Russia
1200BC contact Korea
1175BC contact America
950BC contact China
150AD contact Ottomans

I didn't reach the Middle Ages until 150AD and that was mostly because the Koreans were researching opposite of me. I went straight for Phil because of the start location - figured the slingshot was not going to happen - but as it turned out someone got to phil first anyway. The location of the Goody Huts didn't help either.

The big boys on the block are currently China and Russia so far, but only marginally. The Americans may have a tough time dealing with both of them (Riders and Cossacks vs. F14 ).

By the end of the AA picked off the GLH and managed to puddle jump and find the Ottomans - they are hopeless behind in techs. All-in-all I don't see a probelm winning the game, but it will be a trudge.

610BC - Colossus (Kyoto)
70AD - Great Light House (Kyoto)

AA Turn Log:

Spoiler:

Starting position calls for a move. But which way? I am considering moving next to the water to the SE but if that is a lake then I will need to move again to get a harbor up. I decide to move the worker first due south.

Okay, not a lake, but see a fish. Will need to move the settler to the coast, might as well go for the fish. That peninsula looks too likely a spot. Maybe more fish/whales? I move the settler to the worker. Worker moves on to peninsula. Nothing. Settler moves W. Not much better. Hmm.

3900BC – found city. Start Warrior. Worker roads. Start Alpha due in 40t. This may be painful.
3750BC – Road done, move to grass to road.
3650BC – Warrior #1. Send N.
3600BC – Warrior #1 N.
3550BC – Road done, move to BG to start road. Warrior #1 N. See game.
3500BC – Warrior N.
3450BC – Warrior E.
3400BC – Warrior #2. Send W. Warrior #1 E.
3350BC – Road done, mine.
3250BC – see horses. Land looks like crap.
3150BC – Warrior #3. Start Settler. Not great.
3050BC – Mine done, worker heads towards silks.
2670BC – learn alpha, need pottery. Granaries are a must. Start Pottery, due in 7t.
2350BC – Learn Pottery – start Writing due in 24t. Both cities swap to granaries.
2030BC – clean out barb camp.
1600BC – Learn writing, start phil.
1525BC – 2nd Setter. Send towards silks.
1475BC – Connect silks.
1375BC – Contact Russia – they are up BW, Masonry, WC, CB. They have 5 cities.
1300BC – Pick up Phil but we’re not the first. Give phil to Russia for BW & 78gp. Start CoL, due in 19t.
1200BC – Meet Korea. They have Masonry, WC, CB, IW, 35gp. They don’t have Pottery or writing. Writing will get me IW, Masonry & 35gp. Russia already has IW. Give Korea Phil for CB & WC.
1175BC – Meet America. Phil gets me myst & 35gp. Russia has HBR now. Korea is still destitute.
950BC – Meet China. They have MM but not phil. They won’t give me MM for phil. I leverage Phil for their 77gp.
875BC – learn CoL. Start republic due in 40t.
Give Russia CoL for HBR & 25gp. CoL & HBR gets me Poly and 25gp from America. CoL, HBR, Poly & 190gp gets me MM from China.
690BC – Korea has Math. Give them Myst & CoL. Go back to China and get my 160gp back for Math. Thanks everyone!
610BC – Build Colossus in Kyoto. Start GLH.
350BC – Give Korea Pottery for 25gp. Give Russia Math for 65gp.
210BC – Learn republic, start Lit. Revolt.
170BC – Now a republic. China also has republic. Darn.
70BC – Learn lit. Korea has currency. Nice! Russia & America have Monarchy!
Give Korea MM & Poly for Currency. Give America Republic for Monarchy & 25gp. Give China Monarchy for 79gp. I’ve still got lit.
50AD – Give Russia Republic for 50gp.
70AD – Build GLH. Start HG.
90AD – Give China Currency for Horses & 58gp.
150AD – Learn Construction, start Mono, due in 16t. Suicide curragh survives crossing! Contact Ottomans. They are hopeless behind.

Enter Middle Ages.

[PaperBeetle]

1300BC – Pick up Phil but we’re not the first.

That's terrible luck at this level, presumably from an AI hut. I researched Burial followed by the usual Laws + Philo route, to get the slingshot in 875bc.

[Raliuven]

Originally Posted by PaperBeetle

That's terrible luck at this level, presumably from an AI hut. I researched Burial followed by the usual Laws + Philo route, to get the slingshot in 875bc.

Yeah, that pretty much sucked. I was even going cautious and went straight to phil because of the map figuring the deck was stacked against the slingshot. I'm still not sure who picked it up. No one on the 1st continent. One of those buggers on the other landmass - but not the Ottomans. I could probably figure it out from my notes, but why rub salt in the wound?

The only consolation is that it wasn't because I traded writing too early!

[Più Freddo]

Originally Posted by PaperBeetle

That's terrible luck at this level, presumably from an AI hut. I researched Burial followed by the usual Laws + Philo route, to get the slingshot in 875bc.

I quite comfortably got The Republic for free in 800 BC after having discovered both Pottery and Map Making on the way.

[silversheep]

Starting position was pretty annoying. (I think it's more fun to play the COTMs on high difficulty levels with odds stacked in my favor, than COTMs on low difficulties stacked against...)

Settled to the SW. Going for 20k, stuck with the capital since there wasn't any better location lying around. Sent out 2 curraghs, going to the east and west of the continent to the south. Both sank when I tried to venture away.

Development was really really slow (I think I've been too dependent on settler factories, and don't know what to do when there isn't one.) Missed the slingshot by a few turns (b/c I went for map making first).

Being close to the continent was a plus; shipped settlers and a bunch of swordsmen, hacked away at Russia and China.

Palace 3950bc
Temple 3200bc
Colossus 1075bc
Oracle 250bc
Mausoleum 190ad

Forgot when I entered MA but it was in the AD's. Also wish I'd figured out earlier that I can carry fresh water through tundra by building a city.

[sk8boardbob2]

Playing this has convinced that I'm terrible at warmongering, even at Warlord level. I'm just a peaceful builder at heart. I can do fine whacking a few cities to get a resource or whatever and make peace quickly but as far as a sustained war with the goal of conquest/elimination. Yeah it takes me forever.

Anyways as for the game at hand. First time I'm trying a GOTM trying to finish it. Settled the starting island in a rigid CxxC and have ~five productive cities. Have taken over a lot of the neighboring continent but haven't eliminated any Civ yet. Most of it is filled with science farms, a mix of CxxC and ICS. This is all towards the end of the MA but I don't think any of the above counts as spoilers.

[PaperBeetle]

Originally Posted by silversheep

Going for 20k, stuck with the capital since there wasn't any better location lying around.

You might be right there. I'm on the edge of the hills in the east, next to the iron. It's a theoretically powerful location, but agonisingly slow to get moving, and no access to the coast to get early culture from Colossus.

3950bc: Kyoto founded on the coast: axe, axe, settler.
2630bc: 20k Osaka founded at RCP5 from Kyoto.
2270bc: temple.
875bc: slingshot to Republic; revolt.
670bc: Oracle.
550bc: court.
390bc: aqueduct.
290bc: research into the medieval.
270bc: library.

[CKS]

I'm doing 20k in the capital, settled SE of the start. I made the slingshot pretty easily. I don't remember when I hit the middle ages, but my AA culture builds were:
3950 bc palace
3000 bc temple
1100 bc colossus
330 bc oracle
270 bc library
50 bc colosseum

I got another couple of AA wonders, but they were clearly done in the MA.

[Rigren]

I don't really have a plan. Maybe I'll go for domination or culture, haven't decided yet. It's been very quiet so far. Russia tried to blackmail me once, but that's it.

With so little food on the map, I figured that harbors would play a big role and that coastal cities would be best. So I went straight for Pottery -> Alphabet -> Writing -> Map Making.

My first settler went south. I wanted a coastal city even if the SE tile looked like a potential lake.

My 2nd city was placed close to my capital near the lake so I could irrigate the land and share improved terrain. My 3rd city would be my production city with all those hills, but I needed to irrigate a lot of surrounding tiles first and chop down forest. Granary in my first 3 towns was probably a good investment. My 2nd city could produce a few workers and my first city would produce a few settlers.

The tech rate was slow, so I allowed 2 cities to grow up to 6 in size at some point. While growing, Kyoto built the Colossus for extra commerce, then a library shortly after to take advantage of all that commerce.

Three Curraghs explored the map and found America, China, Russia and Korea. Two Curraghs died in the process. I was backwards first, but when I discovered Writing, I got 3 techs from China, and from then on, I took the lead and did most of the research myself.

AA Turn Log:

Spoiler:

4000 BC Settler moves S. Worker chops forest.

3950 BC Founded Kyoto. Start building temple.

3300 BC Temple built

3200 BC Discover Pottery. Research Alphabet because I want Map Making as quick as possible (harbor and galleys).

3100 BC First warrior produced.
2630 BC 1st Settler produced

2550 BC Osaka founded next to the lake

2430 BC Silks connected to Kyoto.

2230 BC Discover Alphabet. Research Writing.

1910 BC Granary in Kyoto
1650 BC Tokyo founded.

1625 BC 1st Curragh produced

1550 BC Granary in Osaka

1375 BC Find russian warrior. They won't trade alphabet with any tech.

1325 BC Writing discovered.
Find Chinese Settler.
Trade with China: Writing for Masonry, Bronze Working and Warrior Code.
Trade with Russia: Alphabet & Writing for Mysticism & Iron Working

1275 BC Edo founded next to horses.

1075 BC American scout found.
Trade with America: Horseback riding for Alphabet

950 BC Korean city Wonsan found. They are technologically backwards.

850 BC Granary completed in Tokyo

800 BC Discover Map making. Can only trade it for money, China has it already. Lost two Curraghs to Barbarians.

750 BC Barbarian camp destroyed by my archer near Edo.

710 BC Satsuma founded

650 BC Kyoto builds the Colossus!

610 BC Kagoshima founded.

590 BC Literature discovered.
Trade with Korea: Map Making for Mathematics.
Trade with China: Literature for 110 gp + RoP. Research Construction.
America just won't give up Polytheism.

510 BC - 450 BC Nara, Nagoya and Izumo founded.

390 BC First Library built, located in Kyoto.

350 BC First Galley built, in Osaka.

330 BC Nagasaki founded (10th city).

290 BC Discover Construction.
Trade with America: Construction for Polytheism and 32 gp.
Trade with Russia: Polytheism for Code of Laws
Trade with Korea: Polytheism for 25 gp.

150 BC Discover Currency. No one to trade with. Aqueduct completed in Kyoto .

50 BC Discover Philosophy. Ancient times ended. I pick Feudalism and get it for free (not sure why).

[PaperBeetle]

Originally Posted by Rigren

50 BC Discover Philosophy. Ancient times ended. I pick Feudalism and get it for free (not sure why).

You were the first to discover Philosophy, presumably. Not a bad trick, considering you gave Writing out to the AI over 50 turns ealier!

[Raliuven]

Not to mention I lost that race in 1300BC!

[Rigren]

Originally Posted by PaperBeetle

You were the first to discover Philosophy, presumably. Not a bad trick, considering you gave Writing out to the AI over 50 turns ealier!

Nice, I had not heard of that before. Good thing Philosophy was my last tech in AA then.

[Rigren]

Originally Posted by Raliuven

Not to mention I lost that race in 1300BC!

Ouch.

[Raliuven]

Originally Posted by Rigren

Ouch.

Sounds like I was the only one to go ultra conservative on this path and I got the shaft!

[Più Freddo]

Originally Posted by Raliuven

Sounds like I was the only one to go ultra conservative on this path and I got the shaft!

I've had a similar experience losing my race to Philosophy when having a substantially faster research than other players, who won theirs.

Could it be that the AI senses that you are prioritizing research and does likewise?

[Lanzelot]

I.Larkin once had the theory that if you go for Philosophy "too fast", the game "punishes" you by giving it to an AI via goody hut...
Could be... 1300BC was extremly fast for this kind of map. I also made the full slingshot sometime around 900 - 800 BC without any problem. In the beginning I was not sure whether it might be better to go for Philosophy right away and pick MM as freebe so as to get off the island asap, but I figured that this way MM would come too early: wouldn't have big enough an army to move the core to the mainland yet anyway by the time MM would be available. And when I discovered the fresh water lake close by, I knew that Republic should be first riority: with three irrigated grasslands Kyoto was able to run as a 4-turner and create a sufficiently large core to support a decent "invasion army".
I stopped research after Republic (got astonishingly many techs from the AI by trade, including MM and IW!), upgraded my military police warriors to swords, some curraghs to galleys and picked China as first target. But still, progress was very slow, and in 300AD I moved my capital to China. (Shortly after one of the old core towns had finished the GLH.)

BTW: I also got the message in 3000BC that the Ottomans had been destroyed... Fortunately there were enough scientific tribes left to give me two freebes when entering the middle age. Korea and Russia got Engineering and Feudalism, I researched Monotheism and then traded for the other two. But that belongs to the next spoiler...

[del62]

Is it trading writing that puts the philosophy hut pop as a more likely outcome, I think when a hut is popped the cheapest not currently being researched tech comes up. With expensionist Russia and America in the game.