Worst wonder?

[Tlalynet]

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

I would be amused if you could come up with a single game where teching robotics and building space elevator actually makes the ship launch faster instead of more slowly.

Player is teching around randomly without any particular focus, hits robotics earlyish, gets in a war and goes 100% gold production to rush buy mech infantry instead of doing something more useful.

Space elevator comes up as 'sids tips' before they even built the Apollo programme, and they build it 'because it looks cool'.

Later, they build the Apollo programme while neglecting labs and aluminum, so the % bonus is significant.


Then it is useful.

Playing badly can make many useless things good.

[karadoc]

Since this thread is here again, I've got a question for you all:

Would Chichen Itza be too powerful if its defence bonus was not bombardable?

(ie. your cities would still have +25% after the maximum amount of bombarding; and even when the city is in revolt - just like you get from being on a hill... except that cities on hills with Chichen Itza would have 50%!)

[Lord Parkin]

Giving a straight +25% bonus to units defending cities (like an extra promotion)? Hmm, that'd be interesting... certainly more powerful, though I don't think too overpowered. Might be cool to try, at least.

[Riflin'Joe]

How about if it prevented collateral?

[Grimith]

Originally Posted by Tlalynet

Space elevator comes up as 'sids tips' before they even built the Apollo programme, and they build it 'because it looks cool'.

Later, they build the Apollo programme while neglecting labs and aluminum, so the % bonus is significant.

If the haphazard researcher in your example were in such a predicament, that'd mean neglecting Aluminum for the Space Elevator too, right? Hopefully, she's a better city manager than scientific mastermind; otherwise, 2000 will take a long time.

[Archon_Wing]

My suggestion would be that Chicken Pizza provide a small additional defense bonus to any tiles under your cultural dominance. Limiting to your own cities is generally not very good, especially when you get pillaged the crap out of. Basically it could be 50% city defense and we'd still be like -_- If you're going to win a war, you need to take it to the enemy or abuse the terrain.

Another possibility would be that your units would ignore enemy terrain bonuses/river penalities in areas where you are culturally dominant. This demonstrates your troop's superior knowledge of your own lands.

[TheMeInTeam]

Player is teching around randomly without any particular focus, hits robotics earlyish, gets in a war and goes 100% gold production to rush buy mech infantry instead of doing something more useful.

That's still technically slower, not faster . Teching robotics to build it slowed him down unless someone can demonstrate otherwise. I made a thread specifically about how the space elevator sucks well over a year ago and challenged the forum to find and post a situation where it didn't actively hinder a space finish date. It hasn't happened yet, and the thread went into obscurity. That challenge, however, is still active. Show me a save at roughly the industrial area of tech where getting robotics + building it saves time!

"Player not playing the game well" is not a valid example haha. I could claim that ironclads are unstoppable on settler pangaea too! What I want to see is someone who actually runs the math, concludes space elevator saves time, then tests it out and sees that it actually does save time.

Space elevator comes up as 'sids tips' before they even built the Apollo programme, and they build it 'because it looks cool'.

...lol! "When playing terribly, the wonder might be useful if you play terribly enough". Yeah, that about sums it up haha. I'm legit curious if someone can prove it useful in real game situations though.

My suggestion would be that Chicken Pizza provide a small additional defense bonus to any tiles under your cultural dominance. Limiting to your own cities is generally not very good, especially when you get pillaged the crap out of.

I don't like that. The problem is that neither AI nor human would typically attack into defensive terrain anyway, and defending flatland will still be poor unless the CI bonus is extreme.

The city defense bonus IS useful, though less so in kmod. When you set up border hill cities it's really cost effective to use them as buffers; even surprise wars struggle to break a handful of defenders in a hill city (in unmodded civ IV, 3-5 archers in a hill city with walls = you're good until after catapults on every difficulty except deity IE most of the BCs, which is when most players die to DoW). You don't even need promotions on the archers; with just 5 turns of fortify they reach 8.25 str + first strike which is quite miserable for classical units. If the AI wants to choke or attack another city it must spend 5+ turns trudging through your culture, and if you have a good road network the next city isn't likely to be easier.

You will eventually need something to defend against pillaging, but what these defensive improvements/setups do is reduce the #units you need in order to be safe in peacetime.

[civac]

You get Robotics via the Internet. You have 4 Great People standing by for a Space Race GA, including one Great Engineer. Surprisingly, your National Park and National Epic cities produce two more GE on low chances. You can

1. settle them.
2. use them for overflow cascades
3. rush the Space Elevator.

Depending on research path and hammer ratios of your best cities, 3 might beat out 2. Option 1 should always be inferior.

[r_rolo1]

^^ Your reasoning stops being minimally probable in the first sentence Getting robotics from the internet requires:

- that you have computers ( duh ) and build the thing ( remember, it can't be rushed )

- that two other civs get robotics, thus having computers themselves

- that, miraculously, they haven't built the internet themselves

More for all of the above being useful it also requires:

- that they haven't built the SE themselves

Really , really unlikely

[bestbrian]

Originally Posted by r_rolo1

^^ Your reasoning stops being minimally probable in the first sentence Getting robotics from the internet requires:

- that you have computers ( duh ) and build the thing ( remember, it can't be rushed )

- that two other civs get robotics, thus having computers themselves

- that, miraculously, they haven't built the internet themselves

More for all of the above being useful it also requires:

- that they haven't built the SE themselves

Really , really unlikely

Yeah, yeah, sure, but other than that....

The SE is useless, poorly though out, and poorly implemented in game. Heck, the numbers don't lie; it is the worst wonder, and it's practically trolling to attempt to seriously argue otherwise.

Love, Brian.

[civac]

I admit getting Robotics from the Internet is unlikely but it has actually happened to me at least once (I think twice actually but I'm not sure about that).

The Internet has won me a few games where I was technologically behind. In a couple cases it has propelled me from lagging behind to being clear tech leader in a single instant of revelation. In these cases getting Robotics from the Internet is actually probable. The AIs love MechInfs (you guys probably end your games way before coming to this point ). You can even trade away Computers to speed up their progress.

I'm not arguing the Space Elevator isn't terrible, though.

[Tlalynet]

Hmm, you want a serious answer.

My best stab at it would be if you where running a hammer-heavy EE, but couldn't get enough leverage to win domination.

AI likes to tech Robotics, and you don't\can't research yourself, so you'll probably have to get Robotics before all the the spaceship techs. At that point it may shave a turn off of your spaceship engines, depending on the other %boosts available to you.

Even in that case if you have enough hammers and other multipliers it may not even shave a turn off...

[MilesBeyond]

Originally Posted by karadoc

Since this thread is here again, I've got a question for you all:

Would Chichen Itza be too powerful if its defence bonus was not bombardable?

(ie. your cities would still have +25% after the maximum amount of bombarding; and even when the city is in revolt - just like you get from being on a hill... except that cities on hills with Chichen Itza would have 50%!)

I did a thread not too long ago on boosting crappy wonders and a very interesting idea came up: Swap Chichen Itza's bonus with the Great Wall's general bonus.

In other words, the Great Wall would now prevent all barbs from entering (which is the real bonus for most players) and a defence bonus in each city.

Chichen Itza, however, would now give a global (rather than domestic) +100% to GG emergence.

This would make CI a very viable wonder for warmongers, I think.

Also, am I the only one who doesn't have an issue with the Internet being in this poll? Sure, it's a "project" and can't be rushed, but a rose by any other name...


EDIT: As for the poll itself, it's a tough choice between CI and SE. I might go for SE because even IF you were to somehow arrive at a scenario where you could build it and have it still be helpful with SS building, it's got that incredibly stupid penalty of only being able to be built at certain longitudes. Your production cities too far from the equator? Well, screw you! No SE for you!

I've always thought that the Shwedegon Paya and Cristo Redentor would be fantastic wonders if they were earlier. I'd like to see SP available with just Mysticism, and CR available at... I dunno, maybe even Lib?

I also love the "trade" wonders: Broadway, Rock and Roll and Hollywood. The ultimate trade bait for taking your corps to the next level. Forget GPT, get all the crab, clam, fish and rice you can.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

I don't like that. The problem is that neither AI nor human would typically attack into defensive terrain anyway, and defending flatland will still be poor unless the CI bonus is extreme.

How about a general combat bonus in your own land then?

Also, K-Mod has taught me to chop down forests lest it use them against me. :S

[TheMeInTeam]

My best stab at it would be if you where running a hammer-heavy EE, but couldn't get enough leverage to win domination.

If you're in a hammer-heavy EE and that late in the game and you DON'T have the ability to kill people, space isn't a realistic option either.

Also, K-Mod has taught me to chop down forests lest it use them against me. :S

Semi unfortunate too, because chopping down forests is always very strong (losing out only to strong improved special tiles). The only reason to delay them is when you need to tech a bit before the can be usefully applied (IE more expansion or units will stagnate tech too much before key things like writing, alpha or currency, etc).

[Tlalynet]

Originally Posted by TheMeInTeam

If you're in a hammer-heavy EE and that late in the game and you DON'T have the ability to kill people, space isn't a realistic option either.

Yeah... A hammer heavy EE should've won domination or be dominating long before that, its true.

Well, that was my best shot at it

[karadoc]

Originally Posted by MilesBeyond

I did a thread not too long ago on boosting crappy wonders and a very interesting idea came up: Swap Chichen Itza's bonus with the Great Wall's general bonus.

In other words, the Great Wall would now prevent all barbs from entering (which is the real bonus for most players) and a defence bonus in each city.

Chichen Itza, however, would now give a global (rather than domestic) +100% to GG emergence.

This would make CI a very viable wonder for warmongers, I think.

I think that would be a good balance improvement; but on the other hand, I think the Great Wall works pretty well as it is, and I don't really understand why CI should be useful for warmongers.

I don't see why Chicken Pizza should amplify great general points, or give additional city defence for that matter. I don't know much about CI, or history; but from what I understand the purpose of CI was to help produce food. It had nothing whatsoever to do with the military. From that point of view, it would probably make more sense for Chichen Itza to have the +1 bonus that the Hanging Gardens has. And then the Hanging Gardens would have to have something else instead, I'm not sure why the Hanging Gardens should help with health and growth anyway.

It's all a bit of a mess really. This discussion reminds me that "The Kremlin" in civ4 is actually St. Basil's Cathedral.

When making changes for K-Mod, I generally like to preserve the original flavour / strategy of the original game, which is why I was speculating about having an unbombardable 25% defence... but I am sometimes tempted to reshuffle a lot of these wonder bonuses so that they make more sense (to me).


Regarding the Space Elevator; I sometimes use it in K-Mod. (In K-Mod, it gives +100% rather than +50%.) When I use it, it's usually under conditions something like this:
I research computers to get the Internet, and then while I'm building the Internet I research Robotics to help bolster my defences (and because I'm sure I wouldn't get Robotics from the Internet.) The Internet then gives me Rocketry and Satellites, and so I can start building the Space Elevator and the Apollo Program at the same time. If I happen to get a Great Engineer around that time, I can use it to hurry the Space Elevator – which is effectively the only way the engineer can be used to speed up spaceship construction, since the spaceship components themselves can not be hurried.

So... when that kind of stuff happens, I don't think the Space Elevator is useless. But that's with double the bonus; and let me say again that I'm researching Robotics not for the elevator itself, but rather for the Mech. Inf., for defence.

[TheMeInTeam]

The only problem there is that mechinf aren't really necessary or in most cases desired to "bolster defenses". Mechinf...hooray? In the time of nukes, modern armor, air power, and massed collateral? Not very meaningful at all, and comically infantry do get the 25% vs gunpowder against them so they don't even dominate infantry that well lol.

Absolutely nothing except nukes can press nukes, and nukes are on the space tech path. If you can't get them, air power or even just a mass of infantry/arty (add some anti-tanks vs tanks or SAM vs gunships/air as needed) on home ground will easily hold against anything the AI can send in the game.

For TECHING space elevator to be a viable build, it has to shave more turns off of your final spaceship part than you spend researching robotics; that's a pipe dream. Even if you're dropping 5k beakers/turn it's still not going to be good enough, and that's if you could ALSO build SE INSTANTLY in a city that won't hinder construction of space parts (doubtful).

That's the primary reason the space elevator is a sucker bet: you have to tech robotics OR pick it up from the AI via internet AND have the AI not build it first when their era bonuses are maxed...the former is virtually guaranteed to slow down your spaceship date (again, show me an exception) while the latter is unlikely and nevertheless requires your production to be massive and to have multiple great engineers saved up with no real chance at a golden age (because a golden age WILL be faster than what space elevator gives).

Before BTS its tech requirements were different and it had a chance. Now? Nobody has successfully put forth a BTS game where going for it wasn't an active detriment to their finish date. Read that again, because in civ there are so few absolutes: NOBODY has done it. 0 cases. This game is quite old.

Even with an extra 100% boost, will it speed up the last spaceship part by more than a turn? Not likely. If not, can you tech robotics in a single turn or build space elevator without delaying part construction AFTER getting robotics from internet? Again, not likely.

The only way you can make it usable in your mod is to change its location in the tech tree back to something reasonable, not on a late tech that's off the space path.

[karadoc]

Yeah, well, I think you're right -- but the AI is not particularly effective at using nukes or air units. So I find that mech infantry are pretty rock'n, and very convenient because I don't have to mix them with other defenders.

[TheMeInTeam]

They're not much better vs massed collateral vs any other defending unit lol. And nukes are a great defensive unit too . Invasion stack? GONE! Then the AI will sit on its hands until peace.