Let's discuss(and draw) the Holy Roman Empire!

[TheLastOne36]

This thread has two points, first, I would wish to put the various German states and dependencies within the Holy Roman Empire onto a map and thought that with my limited knowledge, the best way to do so would be through a collaborative effort with fellow CFCers.

Spoiler for map:

If someone knows a better(wider map including more of France, Alps and Central Europe to a similar or bigger scale) map, or better yet an actual map of all the HRE states to a scale comparable or better to the image. (Though I thought it would be cool to have a CFC project )

Regarding the timeframe, I am open to suggestions, we could do several maps if people so wished. I am looking more towards 1300's through 1700's however.

The reason I want a map is because I am making my own mod for EU3, using a much much bigger map than the one that came with the game. (Probably around the same size, or bigger than the Vicky 2 map) and I intend on building my own provinces for the whole world. Anyway, this presents a specific challenge.. making an accurate Holy Roman Empire, with it's proper province placements and borders, histories, decisions etc. Luckily I am not there yet. I hope this thread will not only help me build the province map for the area, but also because I wish to learn more about the HRE and it's history as it is one area I intend to learn more about, which brings me to the thread's second reason of existence.

Second reason being a Questions and Answers thread regarding the Holy Roman Empire, Germany, and their relations with each other and Europe and whatever else you could think of, as well as for the discussions that come along with it. Basically, the mother of all threads related to this area and time of history.

[sydhe]

Even if you restrict it to 1300 - 1700, you are going to have a lot of boundary changes to keep track of, with the Treaty of Westphalia being the tip of the iceberg.

[TheLastOne36]

Originally Posted by sydhe

Even if you restrict it to 1300 - 1700, you are going to have a lot of boundary changes to keep track of, with the Treaty of Westphalia being the tip of the iceberg.

I am well aware. When I make the provinces in my mod they are going to have to be somewhat compatible with future borders, but I will worry about that when I get there. On the positive note, I don't think any cities or towns have picked up and moved a few kilometers. (waits eagerly for someone to prove me wrong )

For now (and for the sake of the thread's map component) let's try to keep it as close to real life as possible.

[Absolution]

I would like to play that mode, and I think a scenario, or even an RFC - from Charlemagne and Carolinga until Napoleon, would be even greater.
But I don't think drawing will be helpful, and it can be a complete waste of time.
You'll need the help of experts in order to determine to which lord or duch every territory belongs to, within the HRE.
It think that around 1300 it was more like a kingdom than a federation, and the Emperor owned more territories by hiself.

[Dachs]

Originally Posted by Absolution

It think that around 1300 it was more like a kingdom than a federation, and the Emperor owned more territories by hiself.

1300 is a singularly unhappy date to have chosen, because at that point there was no Holy Roman Emperor. Albrecht I von Habsburg had been chosen King of the Romans (alt. King of Germany) a few years before by a coalition of princes that had banded together to defeat Adolf von Nassau, the previous 'king of the Romans'. None of the major contenders for the pre-Imperial title possessed much land on their own, and there was no real Imperial "demesne" (an inappropriate word, but close enough to the idea). There had not been an actual Emperor since the Hohenstaufens several decades earlier.

So yeah, around 1300 it was more like "hahahahaha this doesn't even qualify as a Weberian state", far from a "kingdom".

[TheLastOne36]

1300 is an arbitrary number. (EU3 starts at 1399 anyway, I could realistically bump my startdate back a few decades however)

What would a good date (for the sake of making a map) be?

[Bowsling]

1356 tends to be a popular date for EU3 mods, because the hardcoded HRE mechanics, if anything, are based off of the Golden Bull of this date. Go any earlier and you're gonna have to set up a ridiculously complex and opaque event interface.

[Absolution]

I think the 13th century could be considered their golden age.
I'm not sure about that at all, but as far as I know, their greatest times were approximately during the times of the Mongol invasion.

[Dachs]

Originally Posted by Absolution

I think the 13th century could be considered their golden age.
I'm not sure about that at all, but as far as I know, their greatest times were approximately during the times of the Mongol invasion.

I personally have a high opinion of the post-Augsburg political consensus.

[History_Buff]

Between SRI and Devlet-i-Osman, I thought most of this work has already been done...

You might want to check out the CKII maps as well.

[Dachs]

Originally Posted by History_Buff

You might want to check out the CKII maps as well.

Nah, that'd be a step back.

[TheLastOne36]

I don't think you guys understand the scale of the map. http://i.imgur.com/Jv0QE.png

The map I am basing on with the current map from Victoria 2 and EU3 Divine Winds next to them. Yes, SRI and D-i-O have done them already, but bigger scale = more detailed provinces = me needing a new map for the HRE. I still have to make the map, all the terrain, topography and river files, the province map for everything else etc. Planning a proper Germany is still for way off the in the future. (doesn't hurt to get a start though)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Something I've been wondering for a while are the motivations for the Wendish Crusades. It seems to me that religion was largely used as an excuse for the Margraves of the empire to expand their influence on the german marches, and to collect wealth. How big of an impact were the Northern Crusades in the HRE?

[History_Buff]

Originally Posted by Dachs

Nah, that'd be a step back.

Having looked at it for a few hours this evening, yes, yes it would be. For some reason I thought they'd done a better job this time.

[Owen Glyndwr]

Originally Posted by History_Buff

Having looked at it for a few hours this evening, yes, yes it would be. For some reason I thought they'd done a better job this time.

But....it's Paradox. That's about all you need to know.

[Sotof]

Originally Posted by History_Buff

Having looked at it for a few hours this evening, yes, yes it would be. For some reason I thought they'd done a better job this time.

It is not an easy thing to create a map that would be historically accurate and relevant for the span of 400 years. Paradox simply goes with what they think suits the time period best and lets the modders handle whatever changes they want to make.

[History_Buff]

You say that, but then you look at the EU3 map where everything is so block and terrible. It's like they don't even try.

[TheLastOne36]

Originally Posted by History_Buff

You say that, but then you look at the EU3 map where everything is so block and terrible. It's like they don't even try.

It's definitely not an easy task. I've been remapping provinces for the last 4 years from various areas. Sometimes the same in different maps. Trying to get accurate borders takes hours of research online, drawing on a map, then testing and retesting, getting the localization(cities, units, ports, trade, province names) right, then making the actual province histories, editing decisions and events to include province ID numbers etc.

And this isn't accounting all the tiny mind blowingly stupid syntax errors you regularly encounter.