[BTS] UB+Leader for largest financial gain

[plasmacannon]

Assuming, "Unrestricted leaders" is being used,
Of the UBs, which will net you the largest financial gain over the course of the game, based on whatever strategy you use and which leader would would you choose to gain even more?

Can you list them in terms of best to worst?
For example:

1) Ikhanda, Ragnar
2) Sacrificial Altar, Darius
3) Rathaus, Darius
4) Stock Exchange, Darius
5) Ziggurat, Darius
6) Cothon, Pacal
7) Mint, Huayna Capac
8) Forum, Darius
9) Mall, Darius
10) Citadel, Wang Kon
11) Fetoria, Darius
12) Apothecary, Darius

If I missed an important UB for gaining gold or reducing maintenaince costs, then list it and I'll add it to the list.

I'm not looking for favorites. I know the Sacrificial Altar ranks high on favorites for other strategies, but to be able to earn as much gold or reduce maintenaince costs as possible over the course of a game. If the Sac. Al. does this, then of course list it higher and let us in on your secret.

Let's assume a game of at least a Large Map size on Epic Speed with No Random Events. So, not a Quick game on a Tiny map to make the Mall completely useless.

[lymond]

hmmm...lots of interesting Math on this one, but some things can be quite situational. The ORG and CH stuff definitely is....size of Empire, civics, etc.

Also, you've pretty much added "leader" to the equation. Thus, UB/Leader combo.

I'm not a math guy though. So at quick glance I would say Capac and Mint simply for the fact that you have the potential for a very cheap and potentially early gold boosting UB on a FIN leader. A 10% boost on income for a longer period of the game on a building that most build in all cities. At least I'm inclined to build forges everywhere vs. few CHs or Markets.

In fact, IMO the earlier the UB the better the overall gain during the course of the game. Although, I expect the ORG/FIN Stock Exchange could be competitive.

Rathaus/Darius is an interesting combo as well

It would interesting if someone could find a calculation of how Sac Altar reduced whip anger could factor into the equation. Otherwise, it seems just another CH in terms of income boosts, although cheaper by ORG leader.

[plasmacannon]

This isn't a Gotcha question either.
We started a similar discussion on Rathaus vs Stock Exchange in this thread,
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...463767&page=2#

I have liked the Rathaus since my first Civ4 game, but over time I thought the Stock Exchange was confirmed better.
We assumed Darius as the obvious best Financial leader.
Really, any leader can be chosen for the question here, especially, if it actually beats Darius, since he would probably win financially vs most leaders.

I also did a search to try to get a better idea on this.

Some list the Top 5 UBs,
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...tock+exchange#

Another ranks all of the UBs,
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showth...tock+exchange#
but, UBs like the Terrace don't directly deal with gold or city maintenaince. I suppose one could argue, that they don't have to build a monument, so they switch to building wealth sooner. Which would be a valid argument.

A couple others emphasize the Rathaus specifically.
However, I didn't find this specific question posed.

If I can help narrow the focus some, I am leaning this question towards the timeframe of "the largest financial gain during the time you need to win a conquest without vassaling", instead of just a higher gold amount in the year 2050.
Though that could be a 2nd answer, if anyone knows that route.

If you conquer all other empires before the Mall becomes available, then obviously it is very useless, but since if you didn't have to conquer some, because they were vassaled, then you don't have the same maintenance costs as someone else.
So, we have to use the example of you conquering all other foes and having a lot of cities to pay for. Though, I suppose you could burn many of them too.

[goldys_lackey]

Tough to beat an early Academy multiplier on top of FIN bonuses, and its also tough to beat early espionage advantage. So, without crunching any numbers I'd vote:

1. Elizabeth of Sumeria
2. Elizabeth of Zulu
3. Elizabeth of Aztec

[Iranon]

Usefulness of several buildings varies a lot.

If we're running at 100% science and our Wall Street city pays all the bills, the Stock Exchange is terrible: 5% more gold output (315% instead of 300% of the base).
If we forgo industrialisation and production improvements, rushbuying everything with Financial cottages and windmills, the Stock Exchange is excellent.
Both scenarios are plausible, the latter is my usual goal when playing the British queens.

The Rathaus is excellent when going for breakneck expansion initially (high maintenance, Currency may not be enough to get our economy back on its feet) and shooting for multiple well-stocked corporations (a UB that had a respectable effect for most of the game outdoes lategame powerhouses).
If we bide our time with a compact empire and our endgame plan doesn't involve corporations (State Property is strong, sometimes Environmentalism without corporations is also the correct choice), it's lacklustre.

The Sacrificial Altar is invaluable when our cities have few production tiles worth working... water or desert/floodplains. In other situations, getting good use out of it requires too much micromanagement for most (complex whipping cycles that involve juggling tiles between cities).

*

Still, I'll try to at least give my top5 in context:

1) Rathouse, Darius
Straightforward and strong. The most obvious economic traits, relatively early synergistic UB (discounted but not double-discounted) able to turn into a lategame powerhouse.

2) Sacrificial Altar, Roosevelt
Many spots make for great economy cities eventually but struggle to get there due to insufficient production; no longer a problem.
Wonders and failure gold can both aid an economy considerably. It's worth noting that we can get a +200% bonus for failure gold (IND, resource, forge, Organized Religion) before we can get any for regular gold. The Sacrificial Altar makes it far easier to dump a lot of hammers into failure cash. Since the economy will be slightly hammer-heavy, ORG is the right match.

3) Ikhanda, Darius
Poor man's version of 1) in the context of this thread. A building discount from AGG isn't worth the economic sacrifice.

4) Stock Exchange, Darius
I rate it over the Seowon because it can be abused more easily: High commerce + rushbuy can entirely replace production and the need for expensive/smelly infrastructure.
I rate it over the Mall because time it becomes available matters. Slightly OT: Stock England is interesting because its Renaissance economy and military are future proof. We can can advancement and try to take over the world.

5) Terrace, Mehmed
Snowballing gains may keep this ahead for the entire game. ORG is enough to enable hard expansion, great discounts on everything needed to make a new city profitable.
Only 5th because it requires the right traits to truly shine and the financial gains are indirect.

The others mentioned don't stand out much to me. Well, some do in a negative sense: The Forum is still laughably weak even if it fits right into our goal. If the Feitoria actually pulls its weight we probably would have gotten a huge head start from the Sacrificial Altar.

[bhavv]

Originally Posted by goldys_lackey

Tough to beat an early Academy multiplier on top of FIN bonuses, and its also tough to beat early espionage advantage. So, without crunching any numbers I'd vote:

1. Elizabeth of Sumeria
2. Elizabeth of Zulu
3. Elizabeth of Aztec

But not Elizabeth of HRE?

Liz of Sumeria is something I have to try out for an Espionage economy game, that seems very interesting, or any PHI leader.

What about Frederick? PHI + ORG for 45 Ziggurats, and a fast Great Spy.

[jokulmorder]

i always think of protective for espionage econs because you can help guarantee you get the great wall.

[lymond]

Originally Posted by jokulmorder

i always think of protective for espionage econs because you can help guarantee you get the great wall.

What does Protective have to do with the Great Wall?

[lymond]

Originally Posted by bhavv

What about Frederick? PHI + ORG for 45 Ziggurats, and a fast Great Spy.

Yep, he's actually been frequently mentioned as the best leader w/Sumer for the EE. Mad used him in one of his RPs - the Wikileaks one.