[C3C] Science funding and overall managing the treasury

[BigDog6500]

Hey guys, I've been playing a lot of Civ 3 recently, and every game I play, The tech adviser tells me that I'm a backwards people and that I need to increase scientific funding even when I'm at 50-60%. The problem is that I don't have the income because of corruption and mostly because of maintenance. How do I deal with this? Is there a way to decrease maintenance? Do I need to micromanage every city in order to install tax collectors in my cities? Any help would be much appreciated! Thanks.

[Aabraxan]

50-60% is precisely the wrong spot to have your science slider, if you can avoid it. Either ramp it up as high as possible, or turn it down to a minimum run and buy techs. It's a little hard to tell what's going on without seeing a save, but my hunch is that: (a) you're building too many unnecessary buildings; (b) you don't have enough workers; and/or (c) you've got defenders in every city. Also, if you're behind in techs, see if you can buy techs from the advanced civs to sell around to the less-advanced civs. IOW, be the techbroker.

Edit: I also suspect that you could stand to expand faster to get more cities down.

[timerover51]

Originally Posted by BigDog6500

Hey guys, I've been playing a lot of Civ 3 recently, and every game I play, The tech adviser tells me that I'm a backwards people and that I need to increase scientific funding even when I'm at 50-60%. The problem is that I don't have the income because of corruption and mostly because of maintenance. How do I deal with this? Is there a way to decrease maintenance? Do I need to micromanage every city in order to install tax collectors in my cities? Any help would be much appreciated! Thanks.

First, the best way to play the game is to micromanage your cities. The AI does a really bad job if you let it manage the city.

Second, I get the same message when I am ahead in techs and researching at the minimum number of turns, normally I have it set for 4. Against that, I do get that when I have the research setting at about 50%. I also play a modified game, but I have noticed that generally, Sid is always asking for more research money. Just for fun one time, I pushed the setting to 90%, when for the minimum number of turns for research a setting of 30% was adequate. One turn later, Sid was complaining that I needed to spend more money on research. Never do I satisfy the guy.

[BigDog6500]

Originally Posted by Aabraxan

50-60% is precisely the wrong spot to have your science slider, if you can avoid it. Either ramp it up as high as possible, or turn it down to a minimum run and buy techs. It's a little hard to tell what's going on without seeing a save, but my hunch is that: (a) you're building too many unnecessary buildings; (b) you don't have enough workers; and/or (c) you've got defenders in every city. Also, if you're behind in techs, see if you can buy techs from the advanced civs to sell around to the less-advanced civs. IOW, be the techbroker.

Edit: I also suspect that you could stand to expand faster to get more cities down.

1. I'm building mainly Cathedrals, temples, and marketplaces to increase culture and happiness, so aren't these buildings necessary despite their maintenance? Should I choose to produce wealth instead? I don't want to create to many military units since it would end up costing me even more money if my army is larger then what I can allow (around 45 units currently [government is monarchy]).
2. You are correct that I have defenders in every city, but I thought that having a strong defensive army would be a good thing?
-Thanks for your response!

[CommandoBob]

Originally Posted by BigDog6500

1. I'm building mainly Cathedrals, temples, and marketplaces to increase culture and happiness, so aren't these buildings necessary despite their maintenance? Should I choose to produce wealth instead? I don't want to create to many military units since it would end up costing me even more money if my army is larger then what I can allow (around 45 units currently [government is monarchy]).

You don't need happy citizens to keep you cities producing. What you want to avoid are unhappy citizens when they outnumber your happy citizens. In any other situation your city is okay.

And, yes, that is sorta strange.

Markets work better than other buildings for keeping the rabble pacified, especially when you have five or more luxuries connected. And in Monarchy, up to three military units in a city will keep the city in order.

Are you going for a cultural win? Then keep the temples and cathedrals. Otherwise, don't build them. If you need cultural expansion, build a new city or take one from a neighbor.

2. You are correct that I have defenders in every city, but I thought that having a strong defensive army would be a good thing?

True to a point. The AI looks at how well you can attack more than how well you can defend. The strong/average/weak military rating is based on attack points only. So 2 Archers and 1 Spear in a city are better deterrents than 1 Archer and 2 Spears (5 attack points vs. 4 attack points).

Note too, that while military units in cities act as MPs, a Spear does just as good as an Infantry. It doesn't matter what their A/D/M values are, as long as they are not zero. Thus settlers, workers and artillery types do not count for MP duty. Only land based military units will do; sailors and airmen are exempt for this.

If you post a save, we can give you better advice.

Or, read a Succession Game to see how some of this actually works out in a game.

[tR1cKy]

scrap the cathedrals, they are worthless
scrap the defenders, they are worthless as well
scrap the temples, they are only marginally less worthless than cathedrals
keep the market when the city produces a fair amount of gold, scrap the rest
use the lux slider to keep people happy. for corrupt cities, put specialists

now, build barracks, build units, take over the world

[timerover51]

Originally Posted by BigDog6500

1. I'm building mainly Cathedrals, temples, and marketplaces to increase culture and happiness, so aren't these buildings necessary despite their maintenance? Should I choose to produce wealth instead? I don't want to create to many military units since it would end up costing me even more money if my army is larger then what I can allow (around 45 units currently [government is monarchy]).
2. You are correct that I have defenders in every city, but I thought that having a strong defensive army would be a good thing?
-Thanks for your response!

BigDog, find a style of play that suits you and play that. Give yourself time to learn the game and get a feel for the mechanics. In the early game, you might want to push up the research slider a bit, and if you are having problems keeping up with tech, you might want to consider building the Great Library to pick up extra techs.

You also might want to play with fewer than the maximum number of civilizations than the map allows, to give yourself more time to develop.

Personally, I like to build things like cathedrals and temples, but then I have modified the game to make them much more of a benefit. Therefore, do not forget that the editor exists, and if you wish, you can modify the game into something that you are more comfortable with.

[BigDog6500]

Here is my save if anybody feels like looking at it. Xerxes of the Persians, 90 BC.SAV

What should I build if I shouldn't build things that cost maintenance and I'm not going for a military victory? Should I simply build workers and wealth once I arrive at my unit limit?

[CommandoBob]

Originally Posted by BigDog6500

Here is my save if anybody feels like looking at it. Attachment 325417

What should I build if I shouldn't build things that cost maintenance and I'm not going for a military victory? Should I simply build workers and wealth once I arrive at my unit limit?

I've taken a quick look at your save: Regent level, 3 other known civs, Standard map size?, continent land mass, one known continent, Accelerated Production.

If you are not going for a military victory, what VC is your goal?

You are rated as Weak to the other 3 known civs, due to mostly defensive units. Your military needs to be strong enough to prevent a war, not just defend the land after it is attacked. That won't prevent the AI from being stupid, but it helps.

Why is Bactra bulding Palace? That will make a size 5 city have 0% corruption instead of the current capital, which is at size 8.

Each city has 21 tiles it can work. However, it takes learning Sanitation, an optional tech, before you can build hospitals that will let your cities grow to size 21. That tech is a full age away. So while Persepolis will be able to work 21 tiles at some point in the future, the most it can work for the next 50 turns or so is 8 to 12 tiles. Or to rephrase it, off the 21 tiles that Persepolis can work, nine of them will not be worked for another age and are not doing you any good.

Because of this, most players here place their cities much closer and let them max out at size 12. Closer tends to be City-space-space-city which also allows foot units to move from city to city in one turn, once roads have been laid.

For 17 cities you have 9 workers. Not enough workers. Even as an IND civ and those faster workers, you still need a 1 worker per 1 city ratio.

It is late for me so I hope this doesn't sound snappish or put-downish. It is meant to instructive, not destructive.

However, as timerover51 said, play the game the way you prefer to and enjoy it. Listen, ask questions and learn and then decide how/if to implement what you have learned.

[darski]

I strongly urge you to read good Succession Games or stories

Legendary games

Legendary stories

I learned more about this game from reading those games because the best players were explaining their choices/decisions. And the players were very good at knowing what to do.

[Quintillus]

timerover51 is quite correct when he says not to pay too much heed to whether Sid says you are advanced or not. While it can give you a ballpark figure, it's not great. Compared to the other civs you know, however, you are about the same as one, better than another, and less advanced than the Maya - in other words, right in the middle of the pack. Based on my own experience, you're also doing all right for Regent in this time frame - if anything maybe slightly better.

There are a few things that I noticed as being less than ideal. Dariush Kabir and Zohak both have libraries, but have so little commerce that the libraries aren't actually doing anything except costing maintenance. They need more roads where their tiles are being worked. Although the situation isn't dire, CommandoBob is right that you'd benefit from more workers. Actually, I think as much as more roads, you could benefit from irrigating those plains and boosting the growth of cities like Zohak, Hamadan, and Sardis. That'll make them all-around more efficient.

I personally like having fairly loose city spacing like you have. But it's more of a personal preference for having nice big cities late-game than anything. I'm also partial to the one-defender minimum, even though it isn't necessarily the best strategy. Point being, it's not going to be too deterimental until you get to at least Emperor (I usually win at Monarch; at Emperor, it's a lot less certain).

It's true that you have a surfeit of happy citizens. This isn't necessarily bad - it will boost your score, and can be nice if you lose a luxury to war or something. But it does cost more.

You're also usually at a bit of a handicap scientifically by being a Monarchy versus a Republic (as your rivals currently are). It does depend - most of your cities are less than size 7, so on a hunch I'd say it probably would not be beneficial to switch to Republic at this point, as the unit maintenance costs would probably eat up the extra income.

Hope this is helpful - it's late where I am, too.

[bigFRANK]

Look closely at whats costing you money and scrap what you dont need, obsolete units holding down distant cities are my biggest waste.

[Squire 2]

Apologies if this comes across as obvious, but I find it's always best to operate at a bit of a deficit and then when you only have 1 more turn to get a tech- slide the tax rate as far to the left as possible while still getting the tech next turn. That way you don't waste any science spending and hopefully the amount of money you make in that turn will undo the deficit losses you made while researching