Stepping up - from Chieftain/Warlord to Regent

[skov]

Hi Guys

Long time lurker, first time poster

I recently started playing c3c again (again, again...). This time around I'm trying to move into the "grown-up" ranks and play the game on the more fair difficulty settings. And here's where I start scratching my head.

Conquest/domination victory is pretty straight forward (i think?) grow -> -> move to monarchy -> -> eventually end game.

However I have been trying to make a go at a space-race or UN victory, the first age of the game doesn't change much in respect to growth, research goals etc. (the order of things change naturally) compared to conquest/domination goal. But when I reach republic I can't seem to wrap my head around the shift, can somebody maybe shed a little light on these "issues"

• In despotism I can pretty much keep my research at 100% just by sliding to optimize the %/turns left and trading with the AI. When I make the switch to republic I'm forced to move it down to the 50-60% range to keep the expenses in check. Is that just the way it is or can it be improved?

• When making the switch the army becomes a big expense (and doesn't provide any MP advantage), currently I'm trying to keep two defensive units pr. city is that to much?

• When not focusing on a military build-up, eventually one of the AI will demand a tech from me, I'll refuse, the AI declares war and I'm locked in a conflict I don't want. Is the best strategy to avoid this keeping the AI more polite, complying with the demand or?

Thanks

[Buttercup]

The difference in preference between Government types is pretty much player-specific and map-specific and people will advise on ways to play best with each government type, but for a tech-based win, such as Space Race or UN then it's pretty much accepted that you have to follow the Republic path initially, so my post will follow the standard basic Republic route to a Space Race win:

1. Choose a Scientific Civilisation - Greece, Russia, Persia, Ottoman etc etc

2. Bee-line Ancient Age research to Republic via Writing, then Code of Laws, then Philosophy and take Republic as your free tech. You can normally then trade for all the other Ancient Age techs that are available and will likely just be left with Literacy, Currency etc to learn.

2b. Ensure you don't build any buildings unless you really, really, have to. Try and prioritise Settlers and Workers and strong or fast military Units such as Horsemen, Swordsmen, Unique Units, Catapults. Your strength is measured by your attack value not your defence value.

3. Change to Republic as soon as you discover it. The bonus of Republic is that each square that can produce Gold will produce one bonus Gold. Like having a Colossus in every city. The cost of this is that there will be no Military Police happiness and a big army costs $$$$$$.

4. Disband all of your excess army requirements, even if it means leaving cities empty. Check with the Military Advisor to keep an eye on your free army limit.

5. Try and keep a peaceful relationship with all Civs who appear stronger than you. Submit to all those silly demands and take pleasure in knowing that it's merely an irritation and not a calamity to donate something for free. To lessen this problem you can trade as often as possible and advanced techs are normally good for Luxury trading, very crucial when you are not building so many happy buildings. Even just randomly gifting Civs will be good for this.

6. Don't worry too much about Production and prioritise Tiles for Food and Gold.

7. Ignore 'pointless' techs and just go in a straight line towards the future. Trade the ones you missed and think you might need. Some pointless techs can be useful if they give you a financial bonus, such as learning Economics so that Wealth is more wealthy and you have access to the Smith's Wonder.


I remember my first game where I went Republic and I can assure you it's the same shock everyone gets and for the more common Domination or Conquest games it is a kind of unnecessary change, but if you want that Huuuuuge tech lead then it's kind of a must.

The extent to which you get invaded by other Civs is dependent on their AI Aggression setting at the map creation stage. The higher the setting the more Annoyed the Civs are from the start and the quicker it is for them to attack you. If moving up a level is too much of a shock, try the new level with the AI Aggression at it's lowest setting for the first few games.

[CKS]

Originally Posted by skov

In despotism I can pretty much keep my research at 100% just by sliding to optimize the %/turns left and trading with the AI. When I make the switch to republic I'm forced to move it down to the 50-60% range to keep the expenses in check. Is that just the way it is or can it be improved?

In a republic, you usually can't keep your slider at 100%, but because of the commerce bonus, your 60% science may give you rather more beakers than 100% in despotism or monarchy. Getting a streamlined military and acquiring luxuries can allow you to increase scientific spending, too.

To increase effective research speed, give The Republic to all your rivals, so they can research faster, and trade. Gift scientific rivals into each new age, and get their free techs

When making the switch the army becomes a big expense (and doesn't provide any MP advantage), currently I'm trying to keep two defensive units pr. city is that to much?

Yes, 2 defensive units per city is too much. Defend border cities, but don't defend interior cities. Have enough mobile units to respond to invasions, but don't pile up a bunch of defenders.

Also, don't build defenders. Build attackers. The AI respects them more, so you need fewer to seem powerful to them, and attacking invaders rather than defending against them works better for war weariness purposes.

Disband or upgrade obsolete units. Once you reach the middle ages, warriors and spears aren't good for anything but dying, which just causes war weariness. Get rid of them (unless they are elite; you can always hope to run across an old, redlined unit to attack later).

When not focusing on a military build-up, eventually one of the AI will demand a tech from me, I'll refuse, the AI declares war and I'm locked in a conflict I don't want. Is the best strategy to avoid this keeping the AI more polite, complying with the demand or?

It depends a lot on the situation. If you are more powerful than the AI, they will back down rather than declaring war. Sometimes you need to keep a monopoly on a tech, and you just have to deal with the risk of war. If a tech isn't a monopoly tech, you may want to just give it away. You can avoid demands by selling techs and luxes as soon as you get them, but this isn't always the way to go.

[skov]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

2b. Ensure you don't build any buildings unless you really, really, have to. Try and prioritise Settlers and Workers and strong or fast military Units such as Horsemen, Swordsmen, Unique Units, Catapults. Your strength is measured by your attack value not your defence value.

I'm trying to minimise the buildings, but wouldn't you want buildings that gives you science boosts? Also I tend to end up building a single culture adding building to avoid the AI dropping city in the small spaces between my cities..

Originally Posted by Buttercup

I remember my first game where I went Republic and I can assure you it's the same shock everyone gets and for the more common Domination or Conquest games it is a kind of unnecessary change, but if you want that Huuuuuge tech lead then it's kind of a must.

Glad I'm not the only one doing some hair pulling

[tR1cKy]

Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
2b. Ensure you don't build any buildings unless you really, really, have to.

@skov: i suggest you to take everything this dude says with a grain of salt, or even two.

In this case, this sort of advice is exactly what you should be wary of, because it would lead you into the opposite excess. If you plan a scientific victory, buildings like libraries, universities and even markets are very important and, by the middle to late game, you should be having them in all your productive cities. Just be careful of the timing. A common mistake by the unexperienced players is to build them too early. As long as a city has a low money/science output, those buildings are generally not worth it because the bonus they provide would be too little to justify the investment in shields and the manteinance cost per turn.

In almost every case, Republic is more advantageous than Monarchy. But you need to adjust quickly to the new government. As CKS has already pointed out, MPs are to be scrapped ASAP, because they no longer provide any happiness bonus and they become a big burden to your economy. Generally, the military upkeep becomes a problem, but there are ways to minimize and even, in the long run, nullify the cost. I offer those two advices:
1) get more cities, either by settling or conquering
2) have your core cities go past size 6: at size 7 and above, they support 3 units per city instead of just one.

Of course, do not build an unnecessary large military. Only have enough units for your purpose. Defenders only in border cities that otherwise would be prone to capture by a surprise attack. Fast reaction forces near the borders, to deter and/or harass possible attackers. A small reserve, in case something goes wrong. An adequate stack of attackers if you plan to conquer some land. That's all you need.

[vorlon_mi]

Originally Posted by tR1cKy

Generally, the military upkeep becomes a problem, but there are ways to minimize and even, in the long run, nullify the cost. I offer those two advices:
1) get more cities, either by settling or conquering
2) have your core cities go past size 6: at size 7 and above, they support 3 units per city instead of just one.

Of course, do not build an unnecessary large military. Only have enough units for your purpose. Defenders only in border cities that otherwise would be prone to capture by a surprise attack. Fast reaction forces near the borders, to deter and/or harass possible attackers. A small reserve, in case something goes wrong. An adequate stack of attackers if you plan to conquer some land. That's all you need.

Agree, and would amplify the comment "have enough units for your purpose." Your purposes are strongly influenced by your map, and the presence or absence of resources. As you move into the Middle Ages, and learn the Gunpowder tech, you may find that you have no Saltpeter in your borders. If there is a supply nearby, you will want to make plans for the "adequate stack of attackers" to go conquer it. There will be a similar challenge/question regarding coal (and later, rubber) in the Industrial Age. If you have expanded well, you may have these resources already. If you have taken an AI city or two as part of a counter-offensive after being invaded, well and good.

[MysteryX]

Early on, when you are sacrificing some military strength to build up your research and economy, just be prepared to concede when a neighbor comes asking for tribute. Make a mental note of it, and give due retribution later.

If you keep some extra spare gold or an untraded resource, there is a chance that the gold or resource will be demanded instead of a tech. That stings a little less.

Furthermore, when you get a new tech, make sure to check to see if anyone will offer you anything of value for it. If someone has a tech you need, or a significant amount of gold, or a vital resource, trade for it than holding on to your tech only to give it up in tribute later.

Alternately, if you are holding on to a tech that no one else has, and someone comes demanding it, you can deny the tribute request. If this results in a declaration of war, use that tech you refused to give as a bribe to every other nation to join you in a military alliance to crush your enemy. Ideally, you do this in a situation where your allies can easily attack your enemy and keep your enemy distracted from you. While they are all fighting, they are not building and researching as much. You on the other hand can ignore the war and build up your economy.

If you are going light on military, building those embassies early on is important. They do make your neighbors less aggressive toward you, and they are necessary to make the military alliances you may need to survive while you are light on military.

[Theov]

So not the difficulty level but the government is causing you troubles?
The differences are the Military Police (MP) that keeps your people happy in Depo and the lower unit support in Repo.
So your income increases, but at the start your expenses rise. After the switch to Republic, they are not keeping them happy anymore and are a heavy ball chained on your leg.
So now you have to make the people happy in another way. And you have to pay for the upkeep of the units.
So you need luxuries (doesn't cost money) or buildings (which cost money) or you need a bigger economy - or a smaller army.

Have a larger population (size 7+) for more unit support. Have those people work tiles. Have those tiles roaded. Road them to luxuries. Build markets for the multiplier effect.
Go to war, get some more towns, kill some or your dead wood army and nuke everyone.
You often don't have aquas yet, or have other priorities, so it's DOUBLE wise to build near fresh water.


WELCOME TO THE FORUMMMMSSSS!!!!!

[skov]

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions.

I've started a fresh game as Russia (std. size, sedentary barbs. continents, warm, 5 bill., 70% land).

I've just reached industrial age and have about half an age lead on all other civs. I've bundled 3 "strike teams" that can reach anywhere across the republic to respond to any threat (as I'm on a peninsula I only have to worry about keeping defensive units in a few border cities, all others will have at least a turn to respond to a threat. I've kept the neighbors happy by giving away useless techs for chump change.

As bad luck would have it my one source of iron depletes on the turn I learn steam power. The Carthaginians have iron to trade and one in a city bordering the Russian Republic. It's decision time quick blitz (I didn't bother researching chivalry so no knights) on a few Carthaginian cities or trade?

[MysteryX]

If you have enough of a lead that you think you can take the iron quickly and survive a gang-up if Carthage gets other civilizations involved, I'd say take the iron and get peace as quickly as possible. Take whatever precautions you can against a culture flip. It depends on how many workers you have and how much land you have, but your rail-building may extend past 20 turns, plus you can never trust an AI to keep a trade agreement. When it comes to a vital strategic resource (and building rails is about as vital as it gets), I would far prefer taking it to trading for it.

(One strategy for preventing a gang-up is simply creating a military alliance with everyone else so Carthage has no one to call to its side. But that's a strategy more for being behind or having a slight lead such that handling the gang-up could be a serious problem. With half an age tech lead and the superior units that come with it, I'd probably just risk the gang-up.)

[Theov]

Originally Posted by skov

Thanks for all the advice and suggestions.

I've started a fresh game as Russia (std. size, sedentary barbs. continents, warm, 5 bill., 70% land).

I've just reached industrial age and have about half an age lead on all other civs. I've bundled 3 "strike teams" that can reach anywhere across the republic to respond to any threat (as I'm on a peninsula I only have to worry about keeping defensive units in a few border cities, all others will have at least a turn to respond to a threat. I've kept the neighbors happy by giving away useless techs for chump change.

As bad luck would have it my one source of iron depletes on the turn I learn steam power. The Carthaginians have iron to trade and one in a city bordering the Russian Republic. It's decision time quick blitz (I didn't bother researching chivalry so no knights) on a few Carthaginian cities or trade?

have a savegame?
sometimes 20 turns is enough to rail the empire.

[skov]

Finally established a trade route with the other continent, Celts had iron to spare, although at a pretty steep price. Made the trade, upgrade to knights and blitzed the two bordering Carthaginian cities to secure my own supply of iron (and deny them of coal, though they have no idea what that is yet). The counter was pretty week and peace was reestablished 3 turns later. I've rushed libraries and universities to help avoid a flip in the newly conquered cities.

But then the vikings saw fit to abuse a ROP agreement and walk in to one of my interior unprotected cities. Strangely they only invaded that one as they could have wrecked most of my empire before I could respond. Lesson learned, no ROP when fielding very light armies . Instead I retook the city immediately and a viking city that was bottlenecked i a corner of my territory. With rails in place across the republic I can swiftly respond to the next wave of Vikings and end that conflict unharmed.

Originally Posted by Theov

have a savegame?

Will upload save before and after the conflict when I get home later

[skov]

The save games, before and after Carthage conflict

[MysteryX]

Rights of Passage are rarely, if ever, a good idea for you. AI nations abuse them frequently.

[Cyc]

Originally Posted by skov

Hi Guys

Long time lurker, first time poster

I recently started playing c3c again (again, again...). This time around I'm trying to move into the "grown-up" ranks and play the game on the more fair difficulty settings. And here's where I start scratching my head.

Conquest/domination victory is pretty straight forward (i think?) grow -> -> move to monarchy -> -> eventually end game.

However I have been trying to make a go at a space-race or UN victory, the first age of the game doesn't change much in respect to growth, research goals etc. (the order of things change naturally) compared to conquest/domination goal. But when I reach republic I can't seem to wrap my head around the shift, can somebody maybe shed a little light on these "issues"

• In despotism I can pretty much keep my research at 100% just by sliding to optimize the %/turns left and trading with the AI. When I make the switch to republic I'm forced to move it down to the 50-60% range to keep the expenses in check. Is that just the way it is or can it be improved?

• When making the switch the army becomes a big expense (and doesn't provide any MP advantage), currently I'm trying to keep two defensive units pr. city is that to much?

• When not focusing on a military build-up, eventually one of the AI will demand a tech from me, I'll refuse, the AI declares war and I'm locked in a conflict I don't want. Is the best strategy to avoid this keeping the AI more polite, complying with the demand or?

Thanks

From looking at the first save, it appeas you are doing very well statistically, socially, and financially on a map that resembles an exploded Euro-Med map, with Sabratha being Rome.

Your main problem is the Celts. They started with a great position, with room to grow and resources to boot. You needed to keep up with them.

First things I noticed were that 1.) you only have 1 Barracks in your 21 cities. 2.) You're researching Medicine, yet you have less than 25% of your cities with Aquaducts. You need Veteran units, and you need to let your cities grow beyond size 6. I see you found out that you can't build cities in a Marsh.

You have more Workers than cities so this is good. And you're building mines instead of irrigating (which is good to start, but you need to let your cities grow, so if you need to irrigate, do so). I also see a lack of defensive units in your cities. You have 6 border cities which have no garrison, completely open to attack (not counting the ungarrisoned coastal cities).

The second save does show you losing 1st place in score, but doing very well in bank. You are stressing Bank far too much. You have 9 out of your top 11 shield producers on Wealth, when they could be building Factories. I recommend that as soon as you research Industrialisation, you start building factories in at least your top 9 cities. You are building Hoover's, so factories combined with Hoover's will really help your situation.

I think I would have tried to finish off Carthage. You need to keep up with your closest rival (or pass them). When you noticed the Celts breaking away in land tiles, you should have been in a position to match their conquests or take them on. Again, you lacked growth in your cities and veteran troops for war. And you've concentrated too much on Wealth.

Hope I've helped.

[skov]

@Cyc thanks for the suggestions

Originally Posted by Cyc

First things I noticed were that 1.) you only have 1 Barracks in your 21 cities. 2.) You're researching Medicine, yet you have less than 25% of your cities with Aquaducts. You need Veteran units, and you need to let your cities grow beyond size 6. I see you found out that you can't build cities in a Marsh.

Yes the missing baracks hurt me a little, should have had a few more around to upgrade and heal units. Building aquaducts in many of the cities seems irrelevant at this point, due to corruption, but it might be better to let them grow seeing as I have no problem with happiness.

Yeah the settler reached the marsh before the worker could finish clearing it

Originally Posted by Cyc

I also see a lack of defensive units in your cities. You have 6 border cities which have no garrison, completely open to attack (not counting the ungarrisoned coastal cities).

As I am going for a space-race victory the only purpose of my army is to act as a detergence for the AI to clobber me all the time. Since none of my cities are in risk of a first strike takeover (at least two tiles of movement for any advancing troops) I bundle the horsemen i cities where they could reach a cluster of cities. So instead of having a few defensive units across each of them in can respond with a large counter-attack force. Of course this will fail if all the border cities are charged at once, but thats a gamble I'm taking

Originally Posted by Cyc

The second save does show you losing 1st place in score, but doing very well in bank. You are stressing Bank far too much. You have 9 out of your top 11 shield producers on Wealth, when they could be building Factories. I recommend that as soon as you research Industrialisation, you start building factories in at least your top 9 cities. You are building Hoover's, so factories combined with Hoover's will really help your situation.

Agreed, I lost focus a bit there.

Originally Posted by Cyc

I think I would have tried to finish off Carthage. You need to keep up with your closest rival (or pass them). When you noticed the Celts breaking away in land tiles, you should have been in a position to match their conquests or take them on. Again, you lacked growth in your cities and veteran troops for war. And you've concentrated too much on Wealth.

A war with Carthage means building more troops, and with no saltpeter I'd have to expect certain loses with knights facing musketmen. My reasoning so far is that the wealth is better to advance research towards the next age and use the excess cash to rush research labs. But I don't know if conquest of Carthage and Scandinavia would be a better option for increasing overall science output.