Guide: how to found a religion on Deity

[Slvynn]

Originally Posted by TandooriChicken

I have been playing around with this a bunch since getting G&K last week. Certain preconditions are required, but so far it seems possible to consistently found a religion on Deity using the Henge gambit. With Boudicca I am always first, and with anyone else I can get it done. On Immortal (I know, but I wanted to try some easy games when learning the new patch and stuff) with Boudicca I have generally been able to enhance my religion before anyone else even founds one. I think that might lock everyone else out? Rules wording on that versus what a GPr does seems a little contradictory, but whatevz.

My method is identical to OP except I don't like to risk the Henge with no worker, so I build monument--worker--(warrior vs shrine depending on neighborhood, incomplete)--SH. I prechop for the Henge, if it's getting close to turn 40 and I'm not done I pull the trigger, otherwise I save forests for NC. Agree that Temples of Zeus and Artemis are handy distractions for the wonderwhore AIs.

Ideal conditions: Boudicca, three-plus forest start, two stone/marble (especially marble) resources (Stone Circles), can be making 14 fpt by turn 50-60 (just in time to start building the required units for survival). Found/enhance ASAP, with no resistance the religious spread is pandemic (and with no AI religions to compete, doesn't even piss them off).

Mayan REX also fun, and perhaps more flexible less situational. Atlatl plus Pyramid = wide, plus "FREE" GREAT ADMIRAL when you are about to pop a GS or GE is just so flavorfully correct. A powerful scientific civilization crippled by its obsession with apocalyptic chronology. Love it.

maya and celts are easy mode
and during my runs on deity with Byzantium (lone civ that addicted to religion but does not have any buff for start fpt) ive found that SH gambit is much more luck based and innefective that piety+rex+philo beeline+using faith generating pantheon (there few in game so u can adapt)
50% cheaper shrines and temples, with additional faith + cities 1-2 pop working faith generating tiles which are usually hammer tiles. Its not luck based . It working . Sh strat is inferior. I've managed to found religion w/o wadting Gp, w/o dying several times with Byzantium.. even in game with Religion rushers i've founded religion 4th

[TandooriChicken]

Why 4th? Who else beat you besides presumably Maya and Celts? Was an AI cap next to an fpt NW? I have had Bismarck with Uluru in the first ring of his second city TWICE now. :eyeroll:

I haven't tried Byzantines yet, they are next on my list. Once I do, I will be better able to address your claims. My point was simply that with the correct preconditions, the Henge gambit isn't really much of a gambit at all.

[Slvynn]

It is dangerous gambit which may fail (really luck based, depends how much ais play and ive lost times i tried to build it while started just at beelined calendar tho egypt was in game ). SH cost alot of hammers which i prefer to use on settlers which generate more hammers instantly as cities (4 hammers) which after building shrine which later will be 2 fpt and is prerequisote for 3fpt temple also could cash u units for defence and generate bit more fpt if u use stone circles or idols or dance of aurora or desert folklore.

[TandooriChicken]

Sure, these are all basic wide v tall, REX v wonders/buildings arguments that you are applying, perhaps with some validity, to the question of whether SH can reliably bag a religion on deity. Whether SH, or, for that matter, religion itself is the optimal use of hammers is a broader question. To acknowledge that there is risk and opportunity cost to the Henge gambit does not mean it's "dangerous.". REX/ICS is also not without risk. All these questions are highly civ/leader and map-dependent. The real danger is in over-generalizing. Until I have the chance to do more quantitative investigation of the strategy you propose (which sounds good, don't get me wrong), I have nothing else to add. In admittedly optimal situations I have had good success with Henge gambit. I prefer to let the AI build settlers. For whatever reason, the developers have chosen to make the population of puppeted foreign cities less unhappy then the population of my own gorgeous metropoli... As long as that's the case, I'd rather build reusable units than the one-time-use settlers that freeze growth in my empire while it's still in its cradle. Next pop on capital = one unhappy. Next pop in new city = 4 unhappy. Arrfgghhhh, must not get sucked into ages old REX debate...

[Slvynn]

Originally Posted by TandooriChicken

Sure, these are all basic wide v tall, REX v wonders/buildings arguments that you are applying, perhaps with some validity, to the question of whether SH can reliably bag a religion on deity. Whether SH, or, for that matter, religion itself is the optimal use of hammers is a broader question. To acknowledge that there is risk and opportunity cost to the Henge gambit does not mean it's "dangerous.". REX/ICS is also not without risk. All these questions are highly civ/leader and map-dependent. The real danger is in over-generalizing. Until I have the chance to do more quantitative investigation of the strategy you propose (which sounds good, don't get me wrong), I have nothing else to add. In admittedly optimal situations I have had good success with Henge gambit. I prefer to let the AI build settlers. For whatever reason, the developers have chosen to make the population of puppeted foreign cities less unhappy then the population of my own gorgeous metropoli... As long as that's the case, I'd rather build reusable units than the one-time-use settlers that freeze growth in my empire while it's still in its cradle. Next pop on capital = one unhappy. Next pop in new city = 4 unhappy. Arrfgghhhh, must not get sucked into ages old REX debate...

you correct, but:
1. My general problem is with this thread and OP which states that Henge is best and only valid to treu way to get religion on deity. This is wrong, and from my experience its more risky way. Obcourse it depends on civ and map in action, but OP stating it wrong way and examples in this thread are not all-correct. Its not tall n wide (which also applies when you choose approach) the problem that pure tall solution which good and sure way to get religion only for very few civs and for majority its risky, unsure esp. on large maps with wonderbuilder rivals.
you can use piety/shrine spam/fpt pantheon approach using tall build as well. CV and SV optimal is 4 cities, the problem i agree is for SV where u must neglect rationalism or 2 sp.

[TandooriChicken]

Good points. I am curious to try your approach, the problem is I am in love with Boudicca (those knees...) but I'm not sure she loves me back so I keep going back to Edinburgh to check in. She gets so grumpy if I don't stand the stones up just the way she likes.