Where to start getting better?

[Fortnox]

I recently tried moving up from Warlord to Noble and found it veryvery difficult. So I've been looking around finding strategies and tactics to use, the best I've found so far are city specialisation and conquest diplomacy- focusing diplomacy on making your enemies attack each other.

But this hasn't been enough and I keep loosing at Noble. Often I expand far to get early resources and cut off enemy civilisations from expanding into "my" land, but find I haven't enough resouces to do everything I want- I can sacrafice money and technology to have an army, sacrafice defense for expanding, whatever I do I fail in one of the vital areas and end up falling behind in technology or colllapsing my economy or being attacked when I'm vulnerable.

So, tl;dr, where's best to learn to get good at Noble difficulty? The best guides and strategies around? (There are soooo many)

[GKey]

VoiceOfUnreason made several threads that might help.
This is the first one.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=420153

[Fortnox]

Originally Posted by GKey

VoiceOfUnreason made several threads that might help.
This is the first one.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=420153

Exactly what I was looking for! Thanks.

[lymond]

Definitely check the links in VoU's signature, if that was not clear, especially the Strategy guide for Beginners, which is a great place to start.

City specialization and Diplo are good aspects to learn, but there are probably some really basic stuff you need to grasp that will improve your game immensely. You will find it in those articles. It will not take long for you to find Noble very very easy...it will surprise you.

[Mec AntiKythera]

I'd say that you need to play a lot of games and read or watch a few sample games good players have posted. If that doesn't work do this:

-worker first
-tech worker techs
-expand, using chop and whip, to good sites close by (high food, strategic resource)
-expand towards the AI when in doubt
-get trade routes up quickly
-build more workers
-actively plan and use Great People
-trade your techs
-be aggressive
-use siege and more siege
-tech Alphabet, Currency, Code of Laws, Monarchy and Construction as early as possible
-watch the religion and civics picture closely, adapt
-2 pop whip

After that it gets complicated.

[xcrissxcrossx]

Originally Posted by Mec AntiKythera

I'd say that you need to play a lot of games and read or watch a few sample games good players have posted. If that doesn't work do this:

-worker first
-tech worker techs
-expand, using chop and whip, to good sites close by (high food, strategic resource)
-expand towards the AI when in doubt
-get trade routes up quickly
-build more workers
-actively plan and use Great People
-trade your techs
-be aggressive
-use siege and more siege
-tech Alphabet, Currency, Code of Laws, Monarchy and Construction as early as possible
-watch the religion and civics picture closely, adapt
-2 pop whip

After that it gets complicated.

I have got to agree with him, except I have never put emphasis on trade routes. Are they really that helpful?

[DarkC]

just a few tips from me:
1. do not expand too much too soon.
2. if there is a weak civ nearby, make an army, attack and keep their cities instead of making new ones from scratch.
3. cut forests to help you boost your production. if possible, leave those that are within the city limit so you don't loose the health bonus from them and latter on you can improve them to lumbermills.
4. discover and spread in all your cities as many religions as possible cause they are a great source of income , which later you can increase with grocers,banks,etc.
5. get as many resources as you can (keeping in mind tip no1) and trade them for gold when possible. the ai civs give you almost all the gold they produce per turn which many times damages their economy, so the more gold you get for your resources the better. for example once i traded a resource for 20 gold per turn.
6. built only wonders that are absolutely useful. avoid as much as you can those which become obsolete few techs later.
7. if you start a custom game, enable the option which allows civs to trade only the techs that they themselves have discovered. this will prevent the ai civs to exhange techs among them like they were peanuts
8. when possible, exchange techs with the lesser advanced civs (but not with those that you are planning to attack ).
9. never trade a tech that might bring you later on in a disadvantage. personally i never trade unit related techs (like gunpowder,rifling, etc) just to be on the safe side.

[damerell]

Originally Posted by xcrissxcrossx

I have got to agree with him, except I have never put emphasis on trade routes. Are they really that helpful?

Trade routes do not bring in vast benefits, but equally well they are very cheap to develop. Sailing is a valuable technology in and of itself if your cities are coastal or river-based, letting strategic resources flow without having to use very early worker turns on building inter-city roads; and later, if you plan to trade resources with another empire, you were building a road to them anyway.

Originally Posted by DarkC

cut forests to help you boost your production. if possible, leave those that are within the city limit so you don't loose the health bonus from them and latter on you can improve them to lumbermills.

Sadly, this is probably not the case. The health bonus is not that big; effectively (if you kept at least 3 forests), it is between 1/3 and 2/5 of a health per city, plus the free from the forest. But... a forest on a river is blocking a point of , so river forests should go; a forest on a hill can be replaced with mine for a net +1 , so they should go (especially since either of these decisions nets you the chopping hammers for early buildup). And later on one of those surviving flatland-not-river forests is worth 3 with a lumbermill and railroad... at a point where other improvements have also greatly increased in value.

4. discover and spread in all your cities as many religions as possible cause they are a great source of income , which later you can increase with grocers,banks,etc.

Well, yes and no. They're a source of income at 40 hammers a missionary, unless you can give someone their first religion (in which case they'll switch to it and convert their cities for you). That's a lot in the early game; and if you found many religions, you'll be lucky not to start failing spreading religions, increasing the hammer cost for each additional tranche of income.

If - if - I can found a religion before many of my neighbours have got one, I'll do that and try and create a block of coreligionists who will also pay off when I found the shrine; failing that, I'll aim to pick up Confucianism, because I'll often want Code of Laws to put my balance of payments to right anyway; but if I'm not showing off, I won't try and found more than one. One shrine is a tidy little earner, building missionaries when I might otherwise build Wealth; but if I want more, I'll let the AI burn up their Great Prophets on shrines and then capture them later.

[Chep]

Originally Posted by damerell

Sadly, this is probably not the case. The health bonus is not that big; effectively (if you kept at least 3 forests), it is between 1/3 and 2/5 of a health per city, plus the free from the forest. But... a forest on a river is blocking a point of , so river forests should go; a forest on a hill can be replaced with mine for a net +1 , so they should go (especially since either of these decisions nets you the chopping hammers for early buildup). And later on one of those surviving flatland-not-river forests is worth 3 with a lumbermill and railroad...

sorry to jump in like this, but: is it advisable to cut forests on plains? (if I'm not _urgently_ needing the hammers, for example when I can instead chop forests just outside the BFC)

I'm always wondering in my games about this. Since I'm usually playing FIN-Leaders I don't put much value von plain-tiles anyway so I tend to preserve the forests there..

[damerell]

Originally Posted by Chep

sorry to jump in like this, but: is it advisable to cut forests on plains?

That depends if you're ever going to work them, really - if not, you might as well keep the forests. But as mentioned elsewhere, my inclination is to chop and watermill/cottage once health/happy caps permit.

[lymond]

Trade routes are huge. Do not ignore them. Very important early. Try to get foreign trade routes asap.

Chopping forests is about opportunity costs early game. The more you chop the faster you expand or conquer. Certainly chop several early to get settlers and workers out quickly. Whether you keep a few around is really about timing and goals. You might save some for boosted Maths chops later to get out a bunch of Horse Archers fast, for instance. Or save a couple for a key wonder. Regardless, the last thing I concern myself with is health or whether to keep unimproved plains forests - only in the rarest of circumstances, but generally your cap will have other hammer opportunities early and those plains can be replaced with awesome watermills or workshops later or even farmed. The rhetorical question I pose then is "Why leave forests on marginal tiles that you will likely not work for thousands of years vs. getting the production boosts early?" The early game wins the game.

[gps]

Originally Posted by lymond

Trade routes are huge. Do not ignore them. Very important early. Try to get foreign trade routes asap.

Absolutely. A good city with decent size and proper connection via roads, rivers or ocean (and not to forget BTS-castles and airports!) can have a good handfull of trade routes with 10+ commerce each! This is a huge boost of cash or science - depending on how your sliders are set. Sending out ships and explorers plus open/free markets with anyone should be high priority in almost any game and situation to get the most out of your trade routes.

[DarkC]

Originally Posted by damerell

Sadly, this is probably not the case. The health bonus is not that big; effectively (if you kept at least 3 forests), it is between 1/3 and 2/5 of a health per city, plus the free from the forest. But... a forest on a river is blocking a point of , so river forests should go; a forest on a hill can be replaced with mine for a net +1 , so they should go (especially since either of these decisions nets you the chopping hammers for early buildup). And later on one of those surviving flatland-not-river forests is worth 3 with a lumbermill and railroad... at a point where other improvements have also greatly increased in value.

well, in the end i guess it all depends - that's why i wrote "if possible" . when it comes to hills, i agree that mines are better.

Originally Posted by damerell

Well, yes and no. They're a source of income at 40 hammers a missionary, unless you can give someone their first religion (in which case they'll switch to it and convert their cities for you). That's a lot in the early game; and if you found many religions, you'll be lucky not to start failing spreading religions, increasing the hammer cost for each additional tranche of income.

If - if - I can found a religion before many of my neighbours have got one, I'll do that and try and create a block of coreligionists who will also pay off when I found the shrine; failing that, I'll aim to pick up Confucianism, because I'll often want Code of Laws to put my balance of payments to right anyway; but if I'm not showing off, I won't try and found more than one. One shrine is a tidy little earner, building missionaries when I might otherwise build Wealth; but if I want more, I'll let the AI burn up their Great Prophets on shrines and then capture them later.

state religion gives +1 , +1 culture (which is essential if you haven't built stonehedge) and +2 xp with theocracy which, combined with barracks, gives you stronger units (more experienced). moreover, religions in general allow you to build monasteries (needs meditation) which give +2 culture and +10% science.
in order to build wealth you must discover a certain tech which comes later in the game so at early stages, i think that religions are the best way to support a large number of cities and/or units.

[damerell]

Originally Posted by DarkC

state religion gives +1 , +1 culture

This is true, but doesn't give much reason to found a religion - those bonusses are exactly the same if the religion spread to you from someone else. The only difference is you get to do it slightly earlier (and of course until your capital reaches the happy cap, who needs happiness?)- if you make it to one of the early religions first.

If. That's the other kicker with the idea of founding lots of religions; it doesn't work. Remember that the OP is trying to move up to Noble. At Noble, if you didn't start with Mysticism, you can forget about Buddhism or Hinduism, and probably Judaism; even if you did start with Mysticism, you are paying the huge opportunity cost of not starting on worker techs immediately (and gambling on who gets there first anyway); so the first real chance you will have at a religion is Confucianism. Then what? Christianity is on the tech paths of those same people who started with Mysticism; Taoism is possible, but a diversion from Civil Service -> Paper -> Education -> Liberalism; Islam's in a dead end in the tech tree with a couple of expiring wonders and nothing else.

At a difficulty where the AI is on an even footing with you, you just can't found lots of religions without crippling your research in other areas.

(which is essential if you haven't built stonehedge) and +2 xp with theocracy which, combined with barracks, gives you stronger units (more experienced).

Well, it's nice if you haven't built Stonehenge, but there's no actual rule against building Monuments; and none of this works any better with a religion you founded yourself. And Theocracy? You're going on a scramble to found religions to adopt a civic which stops religions spreading to you; stick to Organised Religion, get your buildings out faster, and let the AI do the work of researching religions (and building shrines) for you.

in order to build wealth you must discover a certain tech which comes later in the game so at early stages, i think that religions are the best way to support a large number of cities and/or units.

Currency. But there only are three religions "before" Currency; exactly the three you are going to be beaten to by AIs equipped with Mysticism. The best you might do is to Oracle your way to Code of Laws or Theocracy without Currency - but even then, Currency is going to be on your shopping list pretty soon. And without Currency, you are getting exactly one commerce per turn from your shrines for each converted city; no Markets, and in practice no Grocers or Banks either to multiply it up; and Currency is early enough in the tech tree that you are not going to spam vast numbers of missionaries at 40 hammers a go all over the map without devastating effects on your buildup in other areas.

The idea that there's a period when massed shrines can produce significant income but you still won't be able to build Wealth just doesn't stand up to a close look.

And let's not forget, finally, that every time you build one of these shrines, that's a Great Prophet gone; and a settled Great Prophet is a nice thing to have (in particular, you've got to drop 200 hammers on missionaries just to break even on commerce if you build a shrine, let alone the 2 hammers per turn the settled Prophet provides) as is a bulbed technology. One shrine? Makes sense; you can spam one religion far and wide enough to get a much better payback on your Great Prophet. Five shrines? You might never break even on some of them - and remember that getting something early in the game is worth more than getting it late.

Conversely if the AI builds a shrine and you steal it, you've paid nothing at all in Great People for the privilege.

[Tlalynet]

Currency > Early Religions in that you get at least 1 commerce per city immediately upon discovering it for free. More in some and even more with foreign trade routes.

OTOH if you can grab an early religion on a level like noble and can shrine it early enough and establish good trade on a large+ map it can get pretty ridiculous. If you dominate the free spread chance it can expand very rapidly along roads and rivers and amp up your early income while converting others to your religious bloc. If the map is right you can get religious dominance early without training a single missionary, though you'd never want to have more than one religion founded if you did that.

[Archon_Wing]

Food, hammer, chops, and then guys.

You don't want to spread yourself too thin early game. Just grow out gradually or you may find it a bit hard to guard yourself against barbs or whatnot, plus maintenance costs due to distance while fairly low on Noble do add up. Usually you don't have to rush settlers out that fast, and even if the AIs get in the way, it's not too hard to get rid of them.

Early religions can certainly work, however it's best to ignore them when learning, unless you're playing Inca. But if you're playing Inca you can do anything anyways. Do not adopt the first religion you come across though. Look at the situation.