[Religion and Revolution]: Bugs and Todos

[Tigranes]

It appears that Spanish King does not recognize Caravela Redonda as a ship. Every time the player starts the game Spanish King would say -- it is hard to have a business if you don't have a ship -- and gives you a regular Caravel! Every single time...

[raystuttgart]

Thanks for reporting.
(I will check tonight.)

[Tigranes]

I run into very persistant game crash





The savegame is attached. If you end the turn -- the game crashes to desktop

[raystuttgart]

I will check.

Edit:

Please do not rename the mod on your computer.
(It should always be "Religion_and_Revolution" and nothing else.)

This will make analysing savegames easier for me.
Thanks.

Edit 2:

I can confirm the CTD.

Edit 3:

Could not find the cause of the CTD with a quick analysis.
Will now start a detailled analysis using a Debug DLL.
(This might take a little time.)

[raystuttgart]

The bug is fixed.

@Tigranes:

Thanks for reporting.
With the new DLL in SVN you will be able to continue your game.

[Robert Surcouf]

Hi everyone !
I'm back!

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

@Robert:

The French translations of these 2 needs to be corrected.
(These 2 leaders had been changed in TAC.)

TXT_KEY_LEADER_PENN_PEDIA
TXT_KEY_LEADER_HERNAN_CORTES_PEDIA

OK! I'll do this as soon as possible.

I also saw I messed up a few German tags. I'm sorry Shmiddie !

I've been testing our mod during my holidays.... Things look great. I've tested an old version (sorry I was on holidays!) [version 450 or 451 I think...]
I've found a few bugs. I haven't had as much time as I expected (!) so I haven't yet tested late games, but I continue testing a few turns...

I've been playing on a Large map(from A_New_World mapscript), normal speed, difficulty level conquistador.
I've tried 3 options: random seed on reload, no more variables hidden, and permanent alliances.


Minor Bugs:
1) Natives can build some buildings they should not be able to build (see screenshot):

Spoiler:

It's a simply Xml error. I can fix it if it hasn't already been fixed.
2) Some French texts are incorrect or even not translated (my fault!)
3) In domestic Advisor Screen, there are two extra columns that shouldn't exist in Warehouse Tab (my fault too!)
4) Some bonuses don't seem to work. I've got a cattle bonus (on plains with light forest) next to my city, however I don't get any cattle bonus... Same thing for an oasis nearby.
5) I get some strange texts about prices in Denmark or in Portugal although I'm playing with Samuel De Champlain (New France)
6) I've trained a Expert Trapper in a native village. However I couldn't choose "Trapper" as a profession, but only hunter. Unfortunatly my Expert Trapper doesn't get any bonuses when he's a hunter. This may not be a bug, but we would definitively have to explain to all players why this happens (e.g. tell them on which plots you can be a hunter and on which you can be a trapper)
7) There isn't any turn limit in my game, is this normal?
8) Movement costs aren't always correctly displayed... If I'm correct, standard plot costs 1MP, forests, light forest, jungle plots cost 2MP, hills cost an extra 1MP, and peaks cost an extra 2MP. So a forrest on a hill costs 3MP, so does a peak (on any terrain). But the game always displays "Movement Cost: 2"... [This is a vanilla C4C bug, and It should be easily fixed by editing]

Balancing issues
1) TAX_TRADE_THRESHOLD is way too low (200) in my opinion. Of course this is due to standard Civ4Col. I would rather set it to 1000 or even more...
2) Missioning rates seem a little unbalanced (initial threshold is worth 1200 and a standard unit produces 25 missionary points per turn, which means you need to wait 48 turns!)... On the opposite hand, when you play with Samuel De Champlian and try to convert hurons you get a +350% bonus, which means you produce 225 missionary points every turn, and you get a converted native every 5-6 turns. So with 5 or 6 missions you could get a converted native every turn!
3) Shouldn't we add negative Missionary Rate Modifier for indentured servants or for criminals (and so on)?
4) On every single plot in my map there is a feature, either a forest, light forest, jungle etc...). We should reduce the amount of forests shouldn't we?
5) My scout can only move one plot at a time with his poor little movement points (2MP). Maybe we should change this... Shouldn't they have 3MP? Especially if many plots cost 2 movement points (see "bug" number four)
6) When you ask your king for reinforcements, you get a 50% discount, but in exchange you get a temporary diplomatic penalty. At least that what happens in vanilla Civ4Col. That temporary penalty lasts until king increases his royal expeditionary force (REF). But with "our" new system (or rather Net Bandit's and TAC's new system), you might wait a long time before king adds a unit to the REF. He might never add one in some games! We should take a look at this feature... We could either reduce initial king's REF. Or reduce the penalty ...
7) Unit training times seems a little low... (when you send a unit to learn native's specialty)
8) Ships military power seem a little unbalanced to me. A Galleon is as strong as a privateer. A West Indiaman are even stronger...
9) Some Native traits (see hurons traits) seem strange to me. [Maybe I've missed something]. Nearly all traits are favorable to Europeans!
But the +50% great general emergence bonus doesn't help us at all, or am I wrong? Something bothers me...


Major Bugs:
None for now

[Schmiddie]

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

I also saw I messed up a few German tags. I'm sorry Shmiddie !

Can you correct it, please?

Balancing
3) I think we should not.
4) I made the experience that this is not a "problem"...
5) I agree. Especially at gigantic maps it needs most of the game to explor the whole map.
7) I think the times are ok. Sometimes you get the trained unit in the same round! I think the time inceases after the training?
8) I agree. The West Indiaman seems very (too) strong. The balance seems unfinished at this stage.
9) I agree. You can get huge treasures although the native tribe is angry.

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

Hi everyone !
I'm back!

Great.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

OK! I'll do this as soon as possible.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

I've been testing our mod during my holidays.... Things look great. I've tested an old version (sorry I was on holidays!) [version 450 or 451 I think...]

Please go to newest revision as soon as possible.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

1) Natives can build some buildings they should not be able to build (see screenshot):
It's a simply Xml error. I can fix it if it hasn't already been fixed.

Would be great if you could correct.
(I am really busy already.)

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

2) Some French texts are incorrect or even not translated (my fault!)
3) In domestic Advisor Screen, there are two extra columns that shouldn't exist in Warehouse Tab (my fault too!)

We still have some time until our release.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

4) Some bonuses don't seem to work. I've got a cattle bonus (on plains with light forest) next to my city, however I don't get any cattle bonus... Same thing for an oasis nearby.

I will check.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

5) I get some strange texts about prices in Denmark or in Portugal although I'm playing with Samuel De Champlain (New France)

That was already mentioned, but feedback was that it was interesting information.
Also it will become very interesting if we later on implement "Multiple Europe Harbours".

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

6) I've trained a Expert Trapper in a native village. However I couldn't choose "Trapper" as a profession, but only hunter. Unfortunatly my Expert Trapper doesn't get any bonuses when he's a hunter. This may not be a bug, but we would definitively have to explain to all players why this happens (e.g. tell them on which plots you can be a hunter and on which you can be a trapper)

That is on purpose.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

7) There isn't any turn limit in my game, is this normal?

Yes.
Turn limit will only start, when one nation declares independence.
Until then you could have an endless game.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

8) Movement costs aren't always correctly displayed... If I'm correct, standard plot costs 1MP, forests, light forest, jungle plots cost 2MP, hills cost an extra 1MP, and peaks cost an extra 2MP. So a forrest on a hill costs 3MP, so does a peak (on any terrain). But the game always displays "Movement Cost: 2"... [This is a vanilla C4C bug, and It should be easily fixed by editing]

Never noticed.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

1) TAX_TRADE_THRESHOLD is way too low (200) in my opinion. Of course this is due to standard Civ4Col. I would rather set it to 1000 or even more...

Maybe go for 500 first ?
But I guess you can implement that, if you want.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

2) Missioning rates seem a little unbalanced ...

Already corrected in newest revision.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

3) Shouldn't we add negative Missionary Rate Modifier for indentured servants or for criminals (and so on)?

Honestly, I do not really care.
I am ok, with whatever the team wants here.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

4) On every single plot in my map there is a feature, either a forest, light forest, jungle etc...). We should reduce the amount of forests shouldn't we?

What mapscript did you use ?

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

5) My scout can only move one plot at a time with his poor little movement points (2MP). Maybe we should change this... Shouldn't they have 3MP?

I am against that, sorry.
Scouting would be too easy.
This would totally ruin playing on small maps.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

6) When you ask your king for reinforcements, you get a 50% discount, but in exchange you get a temporary diplomatic penalty. At least that what happens in vanilla Civ4Col. That temporary penalty lasts until king increases his royal expeditionary force (REF). But with "our" new system (or rather Net Bandit's and TAC's new system), you might wait a long time before king adds a unit to the REF. He might never add one in some games! We should take a look at this feature... We could either reduce initial king's REF. Or reduce the penalty ...

I think I would rather leave it as it is.
There should be some penalty for asking the king for troops to my opinion.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

7) Unit training times seems a little low... (when you send a unit to learn native's specialty)

I think it is ok.
Especially since there is no increase ...

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

8) Ships military power seem a little unbalanced to me. A Galleon is as strong as a privateer. A West Indiaman are even stronger...

That is on purpose.
If we increase strength for Privateers, you could totally kill AI with Privateers too easily.
It is also realistic.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

9) Some Native traits (see hurons traits) seem strange to me. [Maybe I've missed something]. Nearly all traits are favorable to Europeans!
But the +50% great general emergence bonus doesn't help us at all, or am I wrong? Something bothers me...

Don't see a problem here.
All Native tribes are simply different.

Some traits of Natives help the Europeans.
Some traits of Natives are directed to the Natives themselves.
(+50% great general emergence means that the Natives get 50% more Great Warriors.)

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

Major Bugs:
None for now

Some have been reported but they are fixed already.

[Robert Surcouf]

Originally Posted by Schmiddie

Can you correct it, please?

Yes, of course. What texts were wrong?
I hope I haven't permanently deleted all the texts...

Originally Posted by Schmiddie

Balancing
3) I think we should not.

Here's my point. On Civfr.com someone told me he sacrificed all his criminals by turning them into missionaries. A french missionary would work faster than an english one even though he's a criminal
I'm just saying there's a possible cheat. If every one is ok then why not leave it as it is. But it doesn't hurt to add -50% missionary rate to criminals in my opinion...

Originally Posted by Schmiddie

4) I made the experience that this is not a "problem"...

No, we could live we that. But did someone do this on purpose. And Ray, as I said, I tried "A New World" mapscript...

Originally Posted by Schmiddie

5) I agree. Especially at gigantic maps it needs most of the game to explor the whole map.

I think so too. But my main concern is balancing scouts/colonist. I really thing a scout should be able to explore more territory than a colonist in every case. But with a map full of forests/hills/jungle/mountains a scout will only be able to move ONE plot at a time. I do not like the idea at all
But, I understand why Ray doesn't like my first idea (a scout gets 3MP). Because on a plain, a scout could move three times as fast as a colonist.
But how could we fix this easily?

Originally Posted by Schmiddie

7) I think the times are ok. Sometimes you get the trained unit in the same round! I think the time inceases after the training?

OK

Originally Posted by Schmiddie

8) I agree. The West Indiaman seems very (too) strong. The balance seems unfinished at this stage.

Originally Posted by Schmiddie

9) I agree. You can get huge treasures although the native tribe is angry.

Oh !

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

I hope I haven't permanently deleted all the texts...

I think I have already fixed it.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

If every one is ok then why not leave it as it is. But it doesn't hurt to add -50% missionary rate to criminals in my opinion...

Or we simply do not allow Criminals, African Slaves and Native Slaves to become Missionaries ...
(... or mayb not even any other profession on map, than normal colonist. )

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

No, we could live we that. But did someone do this on purpose.

I cannot recall anybody changing appearance of forrest purposely.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

I think so too. But my main concern is balancing scouts/colonist.
...
But how could we fix this easily?

I really think it is ok as it is.
Especially since you will get promotions that will let the scout move faster on hills and in forrests.
Also the Experienced Scout can move on peaks and gets better results from villages and goody huts.

about Balancing of Ships:

What do you guys suggest ?

[Robert Surcouf]

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

Please go to newest revision as soon as possible.

Yes of course!

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

Would be great if you could correct.
(I am really busy already.)

OK! I'll fix the native buildings!

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

We still have some time until our release.

Great

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

I will check.

Thanks!

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

That was already mentioned, but feedback was that it was interesting information.
Also it will become very interesting if we later on implement "Multiple Europe Harbours".

Ok! This doesn't bother me, I was just wondering!

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

That is on purpose.

Oh! So on which plots can you choose the trapper profession?

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

Yes.
Turn limit will only start, when one nation declares independence.
Until then you could have an endless game.

Is there a game speed where there is a turn limit? If not could we add one?

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

Never noticed.

Well, could everyone check? When you have a scout with the Explorer I promotion (movement cost -1), you cannot cross a hill with a forest ... Try it!

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

Maybe go for 500 first ?
But I guess you can implement that, if you want.

I'll change it to 500! Great !

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

Already corrected in newest revision.

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

Honestly, I do not really care.
I am ok, with whatever the team wants here.

Let's wait and see then!

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

What mapscript did you use ?

A New World

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

I am against that, sorry.
Scouting would be too easy.
This would totally ruin playing on small maps.

See previous message. I understand and somehow agree. But I definitively think we have to change something...

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

OK! I'll fix the native buildings!

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

Oh! So on which plots can you choose the trapper profession?

On all plots with Premium Fur.
(Trappers are hunting beavers, sea otters and other smaller animals.)

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

Is there a game speed where there is a turn limit? If not could we add one?

It is not necessary.
If you activate Victory Condition "Europe" then you have turn limit again.
It is the players choice if he wants to play with or without.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

Well, could everyone check? When you have a scout with the Explorer I promotion (movement cost -1), you cannot cross a hill with a forest ... Try it!

I will check, when I find the time.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

I'll change it to 500! Great !

Ok.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

See previous message. I understand and somehow agree. But I definitively think we have to change something...

I really don't think we should change the Scout.
Maybe we should change the mapscripts to generate a little less Forrests.

But just wait for my new map.
(I should have it finished next weekend and you should not have problems there with too much forrests.)

[Schmiddie]

Something might be wrong with this improvement (stone mine).

Did someone change something? A few days ago I think this improvement (older svn) worked.

I tried to build it for digging stones, but in the city the miner could not carry out this work.

Spoiler:

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Schmiddie

Something might be wrong with this improvement (stone mine).

I am going to check the improvements again.
(Quarry should only be possible to build if there is stone on the plot.)

Originally Posted by Schmiddie

Did someone change something?

Within the last days, there was no change considering improvements.
(I would have seen that in revision log.)

[Schmiddie]

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

(Quarry should only be possible to build if there is stone on the plot.)

Ah, ok. Currently you can build quarry on every hill/mountain and a few versions before I was able to build and to use (digging stones) the quarry also without stones on the plot...

[thadian]

I am able to pull stone out of every mountain but i never get it otherwise...

oh and i beat my first game yesterday! One city mode on lowest difficulty but hey, a complete game means the game is possible to complete without crashes or bugs - i had smooth gameplay and my victory came as a result of conquistadors, horse selling to europe and making coffee.

My conquistador and horses let me fund the natives with enough horses and gold to survive the europeans - and when i declared independence, the french made a contribution to my forces - that felt good, to have this help. it was menial but it felt like keeping on their good sides was worth it.

I stirred up a lot of natives with missions. Being able to talk to chief, stir natives and spread mission on the same turn is a bit much.

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Schmiddie

Ah, ok. Currently you can build quarry on every hill/mountain and a few versions before I was able to build and to use (digging stones) the quarry also without stones on the plot...

I am not talking about the Bonus Ressource, but about the Yield.

So if there is the Yield Stone, you should be able to build a Quarry.
(Quarry only increases production.)

I will check this evening:

• Yields, Improvements and Resources
• Movement Costs for Hills with Forrest
• Generation of Forrest (if it is too much)

Originally Posted by thadian

oh and i beat my first game yesterday.

Great.

Originally Posted by thadian

i had smooth gameplay and my victory came as a result of conquistadors, horse selling to europe and making coffee.

I did not get to play / test a lot (due to improvements / fixes and the map I am currently creating).

But generally my impression is, that the mod is stable.
(Yes of course, there are still some things that need to be improved ...)

[raystuttgart]

Hi guys,

I have fixed 2 small issues:
(New revision available in SVN.)

1. Quarry is now only available to build, if there really is Yield Stone.

This is the case only on Peaks.

Reasons:

A) It is correct from a perspective of Authenticity.
Stone was so cheap, that people would not dig it ouf of the hills.
They broke it from quarries on Peaks / Mountains, were it was accessible much easier.

B) It is a matter of gameplay.
Mountains simply get a little more interesting / important.

C) It is also a matter of usability and looks.
We already have so many yields on hills in some cases, that it would simply look bad,
if there was even one more.

2. Light Forrest is not available on Desert anymore.

Reasons:

A) Authenticity.
You don't really have a lot of vegetation in deserts.

B) It had caused a strange behaviour with Resource Oasis.

-------------------

I had also checked:

Bonus Ressource Cattle on Forrests.

Spoiler:

It behaves correct to my opinion.
Forrest currently reduce Cattle, Sheep, Horses, ... by -4.

This makes sense to my opinion.
In reality it is extremely difficult to herd / breed these Animals in dense Forrests.

If you remove the Forrest, everything works perfect with breeding these animals.

Building the Pasture will remove the Forrest anyways.

Also, Bonus Cattle should never be generated on Forrests.
(This should only happen when manually placing it with Worldbuilder.)

Bonus Ressource Cattle on Light Forrests.

Spoiler:

It behaves correct to my opinion also.
Light Forrest currently reduces Cattle, Sheep, Horses, ... by -2.

This makes also sense to my opinion.
In reality it is more difficult to herd / breed these Animals in a Light Forrest, than on open Plains.

Building the Pasture will of course also remove the Light Forrest.

Bonus Cattle can be generated on Light Forrests.

[Robert Surcouf]

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

Hi guys,
I have fixed 2 small issues:
(New revision available in SVN.)

Great!
I think there is still one or two things to check (I've still noticed hill plots with silver bonus with only 1 silver output, although silver bonus gives +2 silver !!!???!!). I'll check and fix it.

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

I think I have already fixed it.

Great!

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

Or we simply do not allow Criminals, African Slaves and Native Slaves to become Missionaries ...
(... or maybe not even any other profession on map, than normal colonist. )

Well, it's an idea too. So we have three options:
1) Penalty for criminals
2) Forbidding them some profession.
3) Leave it as it is

I'd rather give them a penalty, but let's ask everyone...
However, if we choose option two, I would rather not do this for every profession.
For me it's a question of education. Missionary requires a high level of education, however pioneer and probably soldier would require a low level, and should be open to anyone... So I would rather NOT forbid every profession...

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

I cannot recall anybody changing appearance of forrest purposely.

Me neither. I'll look into it

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

I really think it is ok as it is.
Especially since you will get promotions that will let the scout move faster on hills and in forrests.
Also the Experienced Scout can move on peaks and gets better results from villages and goody huts.

You may be right. Il concentrate on the forest "problem"

Originally Posted by raystuttgart

about Balancing of Ships:
What do you guys suggest ?

Well for me a privateer should be at least one or two points stronger than the strongest trade ship...

[raystuttgart]

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

I'll check and fix it.

Great.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

So we have three options:

1) Penalty for criminals
2) Forbidding them some profession.
3) Leave it as it is

I am open to whatever the team wants.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

I'll look into it.

Great.

Originally Posted by Robert Surcouf

Well for me a privateer should be at least one or two points stronger than the strongest trade ship...

I could introduce a 2nd (stronger and harder to build) Privateer type.
(I have the graphics ...)

You would be able to acquire that stronger Privateer Type later on (when you have appropriate buildings),
which makes sense, since the stronger trade ships are usually also acquired later on.

On the other side I think it is not a good idea to not have Privateers that are too strong:

1. European AI could be "weakened" too easily.
2. It is historically correct, that large trade ships like a "Westindiaman" were strong enough to stand against most Privateers.
3. Strong Privateers could also be used to fight against your King in WOI.
4. Having "Piracy" as a challenge with risks is more fun to my opinion.

Will it really make the mod better, if we make "Piracy" easier ?
(Isn't it more interesting if there are risks and you simply have to consider better, which ships to attack and which not to attack ?)

Summary:
I think it is probably better to have Privateers, that are not stronger than every trade ship ...